This resolution will be coming up today. Note that it is from the youth delegates, making it harder to reject. Also, it seems to me that this “generous pastoral response” is a euphemism for the local option – this is apparent from the second half of the sentence below..
Subject Pastoral Generosity
Moved by Mr. Ryan Ramsden, Diocese of Toronto
Seconded by Mr. Grant Williamson, Diocese of British Columbia
Be it resolved that this General Synod:
Affirm that the most generous pastoral response possible be provided to people in committed same sex relationships; and that in dioceses, with the approval of the diocesan bishop, the most generous pastoral response in each individual context be determined.
Source Youth Members of Synod
Looks like an explicit codifying of local option and an effective overturning of the failure to allow dioceses that ability in ’07.
Pushing this via the youth appears potentially manipulative.
What can you expect from the youth delegates when they have been fed false and deceptive doctrine by persons such as Michael Ingham, Michael Bird and others with the full blessing of Fred Hiltz. This is further proof that this entire synod is nothing but a scam designed solely to project the apostasy within the ACoC.
Agreed, today’s youth have been thoroughly indoctrinated not only by the likes of Bird and Ingham, but by their teachers and professors, and most of all by an insidious all-pervasive pop culture. (Google MTV Awards – Scarlett Johansson – Sandra Bullock – lesbian kiss.)
If we let the youth take the lead on Human Sexuality, we’d also have to affirm casual premarital sex, “serial monogamy”, and “friends with benefits”. No thanks.
Not if my kids take the lead, you won’t! Let’s not be too hard on the youth delegates. It would take more courage than a lot of adults have to stand up for the truth in that kind of atmosphere.
It takes even more courage for kids to stand up to secular culture, Kate. When I recall my own youth, the first thing that comes to mind is the relentless peer pressure. A bunch of kids in my class claimed that they’d “tried sex” in one kid’s home while the parents were away, and one of the girls said to me in a sneering voice: “So I guess you look down on us now, huh?” I honestly didn’t know what to say — just mumbled something like “No, really I dont.” But I still remember her mocking sneer.
If it was that bad for Christian kids then, it must be living hell now in the age of Lady Gaga and Paris Hilton. I don’t blame the Synod kids for voting for the culture instead of the Bible, especially when the adults are doing the same. But I do find it sadly predictable.
Sorry Kate – It doesn’t take courage to stand for the truth, it takes faith, this is a lost generation being pandered to by the very church that abandoned them. I’m in complete agreement with Ellie. Of course this doesn’t mean every single youth, particularly those I’ve never met (like yours).
Of course it takes courage. There was a teenaged girl at the last Ottawa synod that we were a part of, who stood up at the mic and said that “it seems to me that if the bible says it’s wrong, we shouldn’t do it”. You think that didn’t take courage, when every single one of the other youth delegates disagreed with her?
Stuck (#7), I suggest you do a Bible word search for courage and courageous.
Thinking back to Winnipeg 2007, I had occasion to observe one of the most embittered revisionist voices I know, tuck a youth delegate under her arm and deliver coaching in his ear, about gaining ground and emotional impact on the floor of synod. Gave me the chills.
Hi this is one of “today’s youth” and a current youth delegate for general synod. I come from one of the most conservative dioceses in the country. I fully think for myself and all of the other youth delegates do as well! I listen to others ideas, I think about it, and come up with my own conclusion. What I believe in is not based on what Scarlett Johansson – Sandra Bullock – lesbian kiss that happened on some award show, it’s based on my own ethical and moral beliefs. Every youth that attended this general synod are intelligent and confident people that believes in what they think is right, we are not all dumb, giggly, teenagers that goes alone with what is popular today. There were future doctors, nurses, political leaders, and lawyers at that synod that have already been accepted into their own field of studies.
By the way, you are too late, the youth is already leading on the topic of human sexuality because without the youth it wouldn’t even be talked about. Oh and another thing you don’t have to be of age the be considered a youth all you have to be is accepting and open minded and oh and LOVING!
Please do not categorizes the youth, they don’t all think the same but they do all believe in what is right .
P.S. WE ARE NOT AFRAID TO SPEAK OUR MINDS!!!!!
I too am one of the brainwashed youth from General Synod 2010.
It’s a shame I have my own thoughts that happen to contradict thoughts of others.
It’s a shame that my brothers and sisters in Christ do not understand that we (young & old, male & female, black & white) are all individual people, but share in the grace and love our Lord has provided for us.
It’s a shame that because of a difference of opinion, assumptions and slander against past, present and future leaders of the church are thrown about.
It makes me sad to see comments like this, however the youth have the passion and the audacity to bring these issues forward. Such issues are not going to go away, and the sooner we generate dialogue about it, the sooner we will be able to come to amicable conclusion. Bravo to the youth for their ability to step into the light and discuss controversial topics, it is about time.
I do have to agree with some of the comments about youth and secular culture. This motion posted above is definitely driven by more secular culture thought than by Bible-related though. It seems just because same-sex unions are being blessed everywhere else, the church has to do it as well because that’s “the cool thing” to do. But pop culture doesn’t follow the Bible and its teachings, whereas the church does – for the most part.
I saw a banner in a high school which read (and which speaks to this issue) “What is popular is not always right, and what is right is not always popular.”
And I disagree with the comment about youth being the ones to lead on this issue. This issue was coming up at General Synod no matter what. It’s not as if it died at General Synod 2007 and then the youth all of a sudden, decided it needed to be resurrected just so the youth from the two most liberal dioceses where this is happening most often, can attempt to push this insidious agenda on the rest of the church.
And Reuben, pal, what is “right” is not always popular, as per my quote above. And just because a person is open-minded and “accepting” doesn’t mean we have to swallow same-sex blessings as acceptable. What is popular is not always right, and what is right is not always popular…
Okay just a make clear on my earlier comment. I do not mean to have everyone swallow same-sex blessings as acceptable. I understand that our church and many people in the church is not ready for same-sex blessings. My comment was on the ridiculous comments on how the youth are being indoctrinated by others.
Reuben,
Do you think something that is not “acceptable” today will become so by virtue of the passage of time? Surely, the issue is, if it is wrong to bless same-sex unions we should never do it; if it is right, we should always have been doing it, so we should start right away.
On youth being indoctrinated: when I was young I was certainly influenced by the prevailing ideological Zeitgeist – so were my friends. It is a little naive of you to think that you are immune.
Reuben, where does God’s Word fit into the picture? How does it shape your thinking? Is it just one of many influences, or is it the unbending, golden standard of irrefutable truth against which every other idea is measured.
You guys are completely missing what Reuben was getting at… He wasn’t saying that everyone should accept same-sex blessings, not even all of us youth do, he was stating that we are all induviduals that listen to others and make up our own minds, that we are not “brainwashed” by society. Sure the world today does influence us there is no doubt about that, but there is more to the world than “pop culture” I personally am more interested in whats going on in the world than by what celebrity just got plastic sergery. And for the record, this society that you frown upon today is the one that you as the previous generation has created for us to live in.
I’m also one of the youth delegates from Synod, and I take great offence to some of the accusations that have been made here.
First I would like say that unless you have personally met Bishops Ingham and Bird and our Primate Mr. Fred Hiltz, you have no right saying what you are saying about them. I had the pleasure of meeting these amazing men. Just because someone has a different view point on an issue than you does not give you the right to speak badly about them, but as good christians i’m sure you know that, because after all isn’t one of the main things we are taught by the bible and by God is to love our neighbour as ourselves and to treat others how we want to be treated. Isn’t our goal as a church to strive towards Love and Peace? to be accepting of all people and not turn away those who need our help?
but what do I know i’m just some brainwashed youth right?
The fact is people that there was so much discussed at Synod, and I personally got to hear many different points of view, and meet people that changed my life. The youth from there are an amazing bunch of people. each free thinking induviduals with important views and beliefs.
I realize your points of view and I understand that you feel strongly against same – sex blessings. You are free to think however you choose, you have been presented with facts and theories and you have made up your own minds and thought for yourself to come to your individual conclusions, as have we. Not all youth at General Synod had the same views and it is unfair to state that we all think the same. There were people who were the same as you, strongly opposed and there were people who were not sure about it and others who were for it. but we all took the time to listen to others, to see their points of view and to try to understand where they were coming from. It showed us how others thought and it brought us out of our little worlds so we could see just how others lived.
Do not stereotype those you do not know because you have no idea what they think, and you have no right telling them what they should believe.
Believe it or not the “youth” from Synod didn’t care what was “popular”. We are a little more mature than that. We strived to do what we thought was right.
Kayla (#16), I think I understood quite well what Reuben said, and nothing in your comment causes me to think otherwise. For you it appears to be a matter of “individuality”, “free thinking”, “different points of view”, “listening”, “doing what you think is right”, etc. This is not discipleship in a biblical sense. This is not picking up your cross and following Jesus. If you are truly a follower of Christ, my challenge to you is to submit yourself to the authority of Scripture – even if it flies in the face of everything that those around you hold dear and results in you being ostracized. Search the Scriptures prayerfully and diligently, and bring to them an honest hermeneutic that is not built upon assumptions and presuppositions.
Same-sex blessings are a minor issue in my view, and are just a symptom of much deeper and more fundamental problems – problems that go back long before you were born. The ACoC could rule firmly against SSBs tomorrow, but that would change nothing for me. Without hearts being changed and turned towards God, outward appearances are worthless.
Ahh yes Warren I get what you mean but you can make the scriptures sing any tune you want them too. Ask yourself today if God were here what would he do? would he push people away or would he accept them?
Tell me the ten commandments, tell me the beautitudes those are the guidelines and rules set forth by God. The rest are stories of Morals and teachings. All important to living with God yes, but a little different in the times.
Kayla (#18), perhaps you can make Scripture sing any tune you want, but I can’t. There is much they say that is in direct opposition to the desires of my flesh – but I don’t have the right to change a jot or tittle. I could tell you the ten commandments or the beatitudes, but I would rather tell you the gospel. Jesus died for my sins, was buried, and rose again. He bore the punishment I richly deserve and imputed His righteousness to me. I am justified by faith alone – not by following the ten commandments or by trying to live in accordance with the beatitudes. Without God’s sovereign grace I would be dead in my trespasses and sins. He hates sin, but gave His only son so that whosoever believes in Him will not perish. He is God – and I’m not. His promises are eternal and He is here yesterday, today, and forever. I don’t live with God; He lives in me. He is the creator and sustainer of the universerse – and He is the protector of my soul. All glory be to His name.
Your “amazing man” locked an ANiC parish out of their building on Christmas eve and inhibited J.I. Packer. Just sayin’.
yep I realize that thats who God is, but he created us all the way we are and he gave us free thought and choice. God doesn’t like sin yes but he gave it to us as a gift so we could learn. He always is with me aswell but I see him different than you do. So please do not scold me for my beliefs as they are different from yours. We all believe in one God the same God that is the important factor that unites us in the church.
Kayla (#21), what “guru” taught you this:
Sorry, but something went awry with my post in #22. It should have said:
Kayla (#21), what “guru” taught you this:
If Scripture can “sing any tune you want”, how can you argue that “we all believe in one God”?
If Scripture can “sing any tune you want”, how can you argue that “we all believe in one God”?
Hmm, now I get repeats. Either I’m having major finger problems or something isn’t working right. Probably finger problems.
No Problem.
yes if you take things out of context the scriptures can sing any tune you want them too, hense why things like the Zietgiest were created.
And are you saying that we as anglicans dont all believe in one god?
Kayla (#25), so, not taking Scripture out of context, where do you find that God doesn’t like sin, or that He gives it to us as a gift. Heck, how can you pull those ideas out of the Bible even if you do take it out of context?
Why don’t we talk about those who claim to be believers without differentiating by denominational labels? Matthew 7:21 says: “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. The Bible contains many warnings about idolatry and I believe that some people, while claiming to believe in God, have actually rejected the true God and instead worship a God they have created in their own image. A God who winks at sin, or, at the most, doesn’t like it; in the way I don’t like mushrooms.
If your comments about youth today were true then the future is going to be messed up!!!and no I don’t think I’m naive I just like to think that the youth of today have learned from your mistakes I mean that is one of the great things about history isn’t it, that we learn from it. And so I’m clear on what your questioning WARREN about me because my understanding is your questioning my faith and if that is how dare you question my belief in God . Our God saved me in my time of need and and has guided me through enormous obstacles in my life. so God’s word is the ruler by which I measure everything else because he is our saviour and he is the only good that we can always depend on
Have you read Genesis?
Reuben (#27), I made no comments about youth today; I did make some comments about you and Kayla. I know lots of youth who believe differently than you. But that’s neither here nor there. You said:
Yes, the future is going to be messed up – just like the the whole world has been messed up since Adam sinned. That’s the whole point! That is why God has been working His plan of redemption throughout history.
You may learn from some mistakes of the past, but your generation was conceived and born in sin just like every generation before you – and your generation will make its own mistakes. We live in a fallen world and our only hope is a God who can save us from our sins; not a God who will give us an example for how we can live our lives now. Living a “good” life is not a bad thing – but it has never saved anyone.
I’m not asking you to believe me, though – or to believe anyone else for that matter. I’m asking you to trust God’s Word and to study it diligently and prayerfully. Kayla thinks that Scripture can be made to sing any tune, but this has not been the belief and conviction of the vast majority of Christians since the early Church. And I don’t think that Kayla reached this conclusion because of her own diligent study. As you open the Bible, ask God to work fairth in heart and to give you spiritual eyes to see. He is faithful to His promises.
Kate (or one of the other mods), could you fix my html tag for italics – please? I’ve really been messing up with my last few comments. Thank you. fixed – admin
I’d have to agree with Warren about studying the Bible diligently. I honestly wonder who many Christians today actually crack open their Bibles to do some heavy ready and reflection on what it is God is attempting to tell them through His word. As an observer during General Synod, and in talking to a number of people, it didn’t seem as if many people had their Bibles with them or took much time to do any reading of it while there.
While it probably is possible to have different interpretations of Biblical scripture, there are some areas which seem straight forward enough that they can’t be misinterpreted no matter how hard someone attempts to look for another meaning in what it says. Frankly, it sometimes seems as if people ignore the Bible completely in justifying the things they say about Christianity or why the church should do this or that even if its contrary to the standing of the church.
Out of curiosity, how many youth delegates were at G.S.? How many Asian & aboriginal/native delegates?
Probably one aboriginal youth delegate, no Asian youth delegates AFAIK or could see and around 30 youth delegates in general.
Hey sorry guys I was gone camping.
Anyway Warren, You have seemed to miss what I ment when I said that the bible can sing any tune you want it to.. lets just step out of our bubbles for a minute and look at the big picture of the world for a sec. Now how many poeple have taken small things that Jesus said in Parables that he told and taken them litterally or used only small snipets of select readings to “twist” whatever they think is right into actually “considered right” because oh look its in the Bible.
I would also like to point out that yes the Bible is very important but it is also thousands of years old, and writen years and years after Jesus had died. I’m not saying that what is in it isn’t the actual way everything was, it very well could be. The Bible was writen for the time it was made in, for the way of life then. yet since then our way of life has evolved and we can’t take everything so litterally anymore. Just like if you read how things happened in the old testement and how things changed in the way of life and governing and Ideals in the new testement. I mean we can’t exactly go around living “an eye of an eye”. all i’m getting at is that although the Bible is extremely important I think some rely on it a little to much. I understand that studying it is important and that the teachings are important, but we can’t take everything litterally today. Times have changed to much. and yes I have come to these conclusions all by myself. believe it or not I do have a mind of my own, again not some brainwashed kid.
but we have slightly veered off from the main point of this discussion. Accusations have been made against the youth of the church that many of us youth find very offensive and we would request that we not be stereotype in the way we have been.
Why would that matter? I’m sure God was capable of causing what He wanted written to be written.
Kayla (#34), perhaps we’ve veered – but into a much more important area than where this thread started; the area of biblical authority. I don’t mean any offence, but your words were very predictable and reflect what is commonly taught in liberal seminaries. This teaching, in turn, is a result of textual criticism that began in the early 1800s. Even though much of the so-called “scholarship” associate with textual (or higher) criticism has been debunked, many still cling to the idea that the Scriptures cannot really be trusted or that they cannot be interpreted in a consistent or meaningful way.
If your fundamental presupposition is “did God really say?”, there is likely nothing I can do to persuade you otherwise. It is a matter for the Holy Spirit. I would like to leave you with some words, however, written almost five hundred years ago by a man who many consider one of the greatest theologians in church history (John Calvin):
I hope that the clergy who have influenced you will not be the subject of Mark 9:42. I recommend that you listen less to those around you and start reading authors who are long dead. You will find that they are much more trustworthy and sure. I can highly recommend a living Anglican as well – J.I. Packer (try Knowing God and Concise Theology). J.I. Packer was also a signatory to the Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy – which is worth a read even if you don’t agree with it:
http://www.bible-researcher.com/chicago1.html