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	<title>Comments on: Diocese of Niagara on the New West ruling</title>
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		<title>By: Bill in Ottawa</title>
		<link>http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2009/11/26/diocese-of-niagara-on-the-new-west-ruling/comment-page-1/#comment-197735</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill in Ottawa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Dec 2009 14:49:06 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>@29 - One of the problems with these cases is that each parish and diocese seems to have had a different enabling act that incorporated them, at least if they are more than 50 years old. The precedent set in New Westminster applies fully only to cases decided under the Diocese of New Westminster Act, which was originally passed by the BC Legislature pre-Confederation, if I recall correctly.

The Diocese of Niagara Act was passed by the Ontario Legislature in 1873. The Diocese of Ottawa Act was passed by the Canadian Parliament in 1896. Some of the parish corporations predate their dioceses or were transferred from another diocese when that diocese split. While the New Westminster decision will have a powerful influence on the logic used by the judges in other cases, it isn&#039;t exactly a precedent.

Please don&#039;t get me wrong, I don&#039;t think we will win at court.  In many ways we have all lost, on both sides, by having these cases before civil courts. But because each case has so many peculiarities based on the various acts of incorporation, I don&#039;t think New West actually sets a precedent. The lawyers for Dio Niagara will argue that it does of course and may persuade the judge. 

We shall see, and pray, and plan for a future in new buildings that actually have modern conveniences such as meeting rooms and Sunday school space and walls that don&#039;t need constant attention. Where two or three are gathered together in His name we are promised the Holy Spirit. Doesn&#039;t say anything about big stone buildings being the only place that can happen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@29 &#8211; One of the problems with these cases is that each parish and diocese seems to have had a different enabling act that incorporated them, at least if they are more than 50 years old. The precedent set in New Westminster applies fully only to cases decided under the Diocese of New Westminster Act, which was originally passed by the BC Legislature pre-Confederation, if I recall correctly.</p>
<p>The Diocese of Niagara Act was passed by the Ontario Legislature in 1873. The Diocese of Ottawa Act was passed by the Canadian Parliament in 1896. Some of the parish corporations predate their dioceses or were transferred from another diocese when that diocese split. While the New Westminster decision will have a powerful influence on the logic used by the judges in other cases, it isn&#8217;t exactly a precedent.</p>
<p>Please don&#8217;t get me wrong, I don&#8217;t think we will win at court.  In many ways we have all lost, on both sides, by having these cases before civil courts. But because each case has so many peculiarities based on the various acts of incorporation, I don&#8217;t think New West actually sets a precedent. The lawyers for Dio Niagara will argue that it does of course and may persuade the judge. </p>
<p>We shall see, and pray, and plan for a future in new buildings that actually have modern conveniences such as meeting rooms and Sunday school space and walls that don&#8217;t need constant attention. Where two or three are gathered together in His name we are promised the Holy Spirit. Doesn&#8217;t say anything about big stone buildings being the only place that can happen.</p>
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		<title>By: AMPisAnglican</title>
		<link>http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2009/11/26/diocese-of-niagara-on-the-new-west-ruling/comment-page-1/#comment-197520</link>
		<dc:creator>AMPisAnglican</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Nov 2009 14:24:52 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I try to not be a vengeful type, but at times...

Wouldn&#039;t it be ironic if a day were to come when the DoNW and DoN had to sell these properties, and it turned out to be the ANiC that purchased them?  After all, with so few Parishoners contributing their offerings just how long will it be until these Dioceses come to terms with their financial realities?  They may be able to lie about Scripture, but not about paying the bills.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I try to not be a vengeful type, but at times&#8230;</p>
<p>Wouldn&#8217;t it be ironic if a day were to come when the DoNW and DoN had to sell these properties, and it turned out to be the ANiC that purchased them?  After all, with so few Parishoners contributing their offerings just how long will it be until these Dioceses come to terms with their financial realities?  They may be able to lie about Scripture, but not about paying the bills.</p>
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		<title>By: Noli Aemulari</title>
		<link>http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2009/11/26/diocese-of-niagara-on-the-new-west-ruling/comment-page-1/#comment-196952</link>
		<dc:creator>Noli Aemulari</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Nov 2009 14:38:22 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>ANiC trust arguments regarding property were always a legal long shot, but in retrospect, well worth including along the way to the Chung bequest (which alone more than justifies the legal cost of this trial, at least for the Chinese Anglican community of Vancouver).

Another benefit of the trial is that the legal weakness of the trust arguments have now been exposed for the benefit of orthodox Anglicans in Niagara, whose litigation expenses are not be offset by a Chung-style sweetener.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ANiC trust arguments regarding property were always a legal long shot, but in retrospect, well worth including along the way to the Chung bequest (which alone more than justifies the legal cost of this trial, at least for the Chinese Anglican community of Vancouver).</p>
<p>Another benefit of the trial is that the legal weakness of the trust arguments have now been exposed for the benefit of orthodox Anglicans in Niagara, whose litigation expenses are not be offset by a Chung-style sweetener.</p>
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		<title>By: Gerry O'Brien</title>
		<link>http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2009/11/26/diocese-of-niagara-on-the-new-west-ruling/comment-page-1/#comment-196934</link>
		<dc:creator>Gerry O'Brien</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Nov 2009 13:54:40 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>#23  David:

I believe that you have the complete ruling broken down to a few words most accurately.  This same ruling from the DoNW will have far reaching implications in the DoN court cases.  The Supreme court of Ontario justice(s) will no doubt use the DoNW rulings as &quot;Case law&quot; and will apply it fully to the DoN in ruling.  Move on folks, as Archbishop Bob Duncan said &quot;They got the stuff, we got the souls&quot; .

Perhaps now the AniC can get on with evangelizing those who really want to know the truth in the ACoC.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#23  David:</p>
<p>I believe that you have the complete ruling broken down to a few words most accurately.  This same ruling from the DoNW will have far reaching implications in the DoN court cases.  The Supreme court of Ontario justice(s) will no doubt use the DoNW rulings as &#8220;Case law&#8221; and will apply it fully to the DoN in ruling.  Move on folks, as Archbishop Bob Duncan said &#8220;They got the stuff, we got the souls&#8221; .</p>
<p>Perhaps now the AniC can get on with evangelizing those who really want to know the truth in the ACoC.</p>
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		<title>By: Ellie M.</title>
		<link>http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2009/11/26/diocese-of-niagara-on-the-new-west-ruling/comment-page-1/#comment-196778</link>
		<dc:creator>Ellie M.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Nov 2009 02:50:24 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Muriel: I&#039;m only half joking.  Right now the Niagara Diocese can&#039;t even seem to pay its court-mandated share of expenses for the disputed parishes.  If they &quot;win&quot; the properties, Westminster-style, then they can pay the whole shot.  Why shouldn&#039;t they, if the properties are &quot;theirs&quot;?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Muriel: I&#8217;m only half joking.  Right now the Niagara Diocese can&#8217;t even seem to pay its court-mandated share of expenses for the disputed parishes.  If they &#8220;win&#8221; the properties, Westminster-style, then they can pay the whole shot.  Why shouldn&#8217;t they, if the properties are &#8220;theirs&#8221;?</p>
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		<title>By: Toral</title>
		<link>http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2009/11/26/diocese-of-niagara-on-the-new-west-ruling/comment-page-1/#comment-196769</link>
		<dc:creator>Toral</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Nov 2009 02:10:22 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The workable resolution in a situation where people are reinstated to offfices they can no longer continue to perform for reasons such as incompatability of principle is usually an agreement that the officers resign in exchange for receiving a monetary payment in lieu of legal damages for the illegal dismissal.

Otherwise it would be easy for +Ingham to put the trustees in a position where they are in breach of their fiduciary duty abd we&#039;re back into some kind of expensive legal proceedings again.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The workable resolution in a situation where people are reinstated to offfices they can no longer continue to perform for reasons such as incompatability of principle is usually an agreement that the officers resign in exchange for receiving a monetary payment in lieu of legal damages for the illegal dismissal.</p>
<p>Otherwise it would be easy for +Ingham to put the trustees in a position where they are in breach of their fiduciary duty abd we&#8217;re back into some kind of expensive legal proceedings again.</p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2009/11/26/diocese-of-niagara-on-the-new-west-ruling/comment-page-1/#comment-196767</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Nov 2009 02:08:52 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Sinner,
Let the politics drop, please! And let&#039;s not be consigning people to hell; as your moniker implies - we are all sinners.

And while I&#039;m at it, please use a real email address when you comment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sinner,<br />
Let the politics drop, please! And let&#8217;s not be consigning people to hell; as your moniker implies &#8211; we are all sinners.</p>
<p>And while I&#8217;m at it, please use a real email address when you comment.</p>
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		<title>By: Sinner</title>
		<link>http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2009/11/26/diocese-of-niagara-on-the-new-west-ruling/comment-page-1/#comment-196765</link>
		<dc:creator>Sinner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Nov 2009 01:59:52 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;i&gt;ith indifference to the poor, which is also un Christian.&lt;/i&gt;

Jesus said: the poor will always be with you.

But Jesus says: gays and abortionists and adulterers are dammed to eternity.

Jesus would never have voted for a &quot;left-wing&quot; party.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>ith indifference to the poor, which is also un Christian.</i></p>
<p>Jesus said: the poor will always be with you.</p>
<p>But Jesus says: gays and abortionists and adulterers are dammed to eternity.</p>
<p>Jesus would never have voted for a &#8220;left-wing&#8221; party.</p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2009/11/26/diocese-of-niagara-on-the-new-west-ruling/comment-page-1/#comment-196758</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Nov 2009 01:32:46 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Unfortunately, I think the ruling is relatively clear:

A parish cannot leave a diocese, therefore the parishes are still a part of the DoNW

Trustees still hold their positions in the Diocese of New Westminster parishes. The rectors of those parishes are no longer employed by the diocese of New Westminster.

Ingham will be appointing new rectors for the parishes. The trustees will have to accommodate to the new rectors - who will undoubtedly be loyal to Ingham - seethe in latent rebellion or quit. This is where the &lt;i&gt;For now, I will leave it to the parties to arrive at a workable resolution&lt;/i&gt; part of the ruling comes in. 

Congregations and the trustees can stay in the buildings under the new rectors, Michael Ingham and the diocese of New Westminster.

The ANiC parishioners who wish to remain with their ANiC priests can no longer use the buildings.

The notion of the trustees coming to some &lt;i&gt; workable resolution&lt;/i&gt; with Ingham and his new Stepford Rectors is a little difficult to believe when they could not do it before all this started.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Unfortunately, I think the ruling is relatively clear:</p>
<p>A parish cannot leave a diocese, therefore the parishes are still a part of the DoNW</p>
<p>Trustees still hold their positions in the Diocese of New Westminster parishes. The rectors of those parishes are no longer employed by the diocese of New Westminster.</p>
<p>Ingham will be appointing new rectors for the parishes. The trustees will have to accommodate to the new rectors &#8211; who will undoubtedly be loyal to Ingham &#8211; seethe in latent rebellion or quit. This is where the <i>For now, I will leave it to the parties to arrive at a workable resolution</i> part of the ruling comes in. </p>
<p>Congregations and the trustees can stay in the buildings under the new rectors, Michael Ingham and the diocese of New Westminster.</p>
<p>The ANiC parishioners who wish to remain with their ANiC priests can no longer use the buildings.</p>
<p>The notion of the trustees coming to some <i> workable resolution</i> with Ingham and his new Stepford Rectors is a little difficult to believe when they could not do it before all this started.</p>
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		<title>By: Muriel</title>
		<link>http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2009/11/26/diocese-of-niagara-on-the-new-west-ruling/comment-page-1/#comment-196751</link>
		<dc:creator>Muriel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Nov 2009 01:13:52 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Ellie #20
As a member of a congregation that has given the dio over $1000,000 over the years plus paid for the buildings, maintenance and taxes - I love your comments</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ellie #20<br />
As a member of a congregation that has given the dio over $1000,000 over the years plus paid for the buildings, maintenance and taxes &#8211; I love your comments</p>
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