Comments on: The Decline and Fall of the Anglican Church of Canada http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2009/08/26/the-decline-and-fall-of-the-anglican-church-of-canada/ Wed, 08 Feb 2012 14:46:15 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Frank Wirrell http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2009/08/26/the-decline-and-fall-of-the-anglican-church-of-canada/comment-page-2/#comment-183943 Frank Wirrell Tue, 22 Sep 2009 02:05:47 +0000 http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2009/08/26/the-decline-and-fall-of-the-anglican-church-of-canada/#comment-183943 For Randy #62 It is obvious that the many postings including yours are in response to mine #55. You have stated that God has not abandoned His church and that is true. It is also true that the ACoC has abandoned God as evidenced by the actions of the Dioceses of New Westminster and Niagara which are further exasperated by the failure of the Primate or the House of Bishops to take effective action to correct the matter. The fact that God has not abandoned his church is proven by the formation of the ANiC and the Anglican Church in North America. You have stated that the ABC recognizes only the ACoC and that might well be the case and could be a result of wanting to be politically correct. However, to be a true Anglican one must first be a Christian and accept both the authority of Scripture and the uniqueness of Jesus Christ and the facts would tend to prove the ACoC is indeed losing any and all claims to be truly Anglican. You have stated your diocese is not, at least up to the present time, prepared to be involved in SSB’s – a misnomer in itself as such “blessings” are impossible regardless of the liturgy or the person(s) performing same – but I would ask what are you and your bishop doing to counter this fatal disease or are you simply prepared to sit on the fence and continue to allow the church to fall into the abyss of apostasy and irrelevance. For Randy #62
It is obvious that the many postings including yours are in response to mine #55. You have stated that God has not abandoned His church and that is true. It is also true that the ACoC has abandoned God as evidenced by the actions of the Dioceses of New Westminster and Niagara which are further exasperated by the failure of the Primate or the House of Bishops to take effective action to correct the matter. The fact that God has not abandoned his church is proven by the formation of the ANiC and the Anglican Church in North America. You have stated that the ABC recognizes only the ACoC and that might well be the case and could be a result of wanting to be politically correct. However, to be a true Anglican one must first be a Christian and accept both the authority of Scripture and the uniqueness of Jesus Christ and the facts would tend to prove the ACoC is indeed losing any and all claims to be truly Anglican. You have stated your diocese is not, at least up to the present time, prepared to be involved in SSB’s – a misnomer in itself as such “blessings” are impossible regardless of the liturgy or the person(s) performing same – but I would ask what are you and your bishop doing to counter this fatal disease or are you simply prepared to sit on the fence and continue to allow the church to fall into the abyss of apostasy and irrelevance.

]]> By: Randy http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2009/08/26/the-decline-and-fall-of-the-anglican-church-of-canada/comment-page-2/#comment-183924 Randy Tue, 22 Sep 2009 00:05:06 +0000 http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2009/08/26/the-decline-and-fall-of-the-anglican-church-of-canada/#comment-183924 #60 - Thank you David: You will note that my words were "Its not where we are" , I did not say "Its not where we are now". So, it would be wrong to imply that this is just an expression of the present. Just wanted to clarify that. Thanks. #60 – Thank you David: You will note that my words were “Its not where we are” , I did not say “Its not where we are now”. So, it would be wrong to imply that this is just an expression of the present. Just wanted to clarify that. Thanks.

]]> By: Warren http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2009/08/26/the-decline-and-fall-of-the-anglican-church-of-canada/comment-page-2/#comment-183747 Warren Mon, 21 Sep 2009 03:39:24 +0000 http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2009/08/26/the-decline-and-fall-of-the-anglican-church-of-canada/#comment-183747 Randy, in #59 you say, <blockquote>To call the church “unchristian” is more than anyone is able to proclaim, for that would classify all those still part of the ACoC as unchristian also, both bishops, priests, deacons and lay people.</blockquote> I disagree. Unless you can persuade me from God's Word that a man-made institution such as the ACoC is synonymous with the body of Christ, this argument is also a strawman. For this statement to be logically consistent, an necessary test of whether or not one is "christian" (by which I assume you mean regenerate) would be the church one is affiliated with. Based on other comments you have made, I find it hard to believe that this is your real position. For me, Article XI is sufficient (even though I find it hard, in my flesh, to not judge those who choose to sit - for an extended period of time - under the preaching of someone who does not believe in the inspiration and inerrancy of Scripture and who distorts it to make it compatible with worldly values). Does the ACoC still bear the marks of a true church? I think it is reasonable to look to the 19th Article as a starting point. I understand that you likely have no interest in interacting with me, and take no offence. Randy, in #59 you say,

To call the church “unchristian” is more than anyone is able to proclaim, for that would classify all those still part of the ACoC as unchristian also, both bishops, priests, deacons and lay people.

I disagree. Unless you can persuade me from God’s Word that a man-made institution such as the ACoC is synonymous with the body of Christ, this argument is also a strawman. For this statement to be logically consistent, an necessary test of whether or not one is “christian” (by which I assume you mean regenerate) would be the church one is affiliated with. Based on other comments you have made, I find it hard to believe that this is your real position. For me, Article XI is sufficient (even though I find it hard, in my flesh, to not judge those who choose to sit – for an extended period of time – under the preaching of someone who does not believe in the inspiration and inerrancy of Scripture and who distorts it to make it compatible with worldly values).

Does the ACoC still bear the marks of a true church? I think it is reasonable to look to the 19th Article as a starting point.

I understand that you likely have no interest in interacting with me, and take no offence.

]]> By: David http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2009/08/26/the-decline-and-fall-of-the-anglican-church-of-canada/comment-page-2/#comment-183731 David Mon, 21 Sep 2009 02:18:15 +0000 http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2009/08/26/the-decline-and-fall-of-the-anglican-church-of-canada/#comment-183731 Randy, I said <i>"a number of dioceses - and arguably the entire ACoC - have adopted a faith that is no longer Christian</i>, not that no individual in the ACoC is a Christian. Some dioceses are worse than others: Michael Ingham in "Mansions of the Spirit" denied the uniqueness of Christ; I was at a talk where Fred Hiltz was unable to clearly articulate what the gospel is; Andrew Hutchison denied that the Bible is the word of God; Michael Bird in a parish meeting refused to state what he personally believes; in a local Niagara clericus meeting only <i>one</i> Anglican priest said he actually believed the entire Nicene Creed - and he is now in ANiC. I could go on and on. What do you think the percentage of unbelieving leaders in the ACoC has to be before it ceases to be a Christian entity? I suppose you might argue that so long as the ACoC has not officially denied any of the essential doctrines, what the leaders believe doesn’t matter; a bit like having butchers run a vegetarian society or oil executives stand for the Green Party. The sham can only last so long, though. Incidentally, your statement <i>"neither I nor the diocese I am in has any intention of proceeding with the blessing of SSB’s, its not where we are."</i> implies that proceeding with SSB might be where you will be at some point even though you are not there now; is that what you meant? Randy,
I said “a number of dioceses – and arguably the entire ACoC – have adopted a faith that is no longer Christian, not that no individual in the ACoC is a Christian.

Some dioceses are worse than others: Michael Ingham in “Mansions of the Spirit” denied the uniqueness of Christ; I was at a talk where Fred Hiltz was unable to clearly articulate what the gospel is; Andrew Hutchison denied that the Bible is the word of God; Michael Bird in a parish meeting refused to state what he personally believes; in a local Niagara clericus meeting only one Anglican priest said he actually believed the entire Nicene Creed – and he is now in ANiC. I could go on and on. What do you think the percentage of unbelieving leaders in the ACoC has to be before it ceases to be a Christian entity?

I suppose you might argue that so long as the ACoC has not officially denied any of the essential doctrines, what the leaders believe doesn’t matter; a bit like having butchers run a vegetarian society or oil executives stand for the Green Party. The sham can only last so long, though.

Incidentally, your statement “neither I nor the diocese I am in has any intention of proceeding with the blessing of SSB’s, its not where we are.” implies that proceeding with SSB might be where you will be at some point even though you are not there now; is that what you meant?

]]> By: Randy http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2009/08/26/the-decline-and-fall-of-the-anglican-church-of-canada/comment-page-2/#comment-183724 Randy Mon, 21 Sep 2009 00:51:39 +0000 http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2009/08/26/the-decline-and-fall-of-the-anglican-church-of-canada/#comment-183724 David: As far as I can see the Anglican Church of Canada has not abandoned any of the core doctrines of faith such as the creeds, the trinity, the birth, death & resurrection of Jesus. Liturgy and worship are being done all over the ACoC the same today as 25 years ago. I have not been instructed to teach or preach anything different now than when I was ordained in 1992. In addition the marriage canon of the ACoC has not been changed in any way, it recognizes marriage as a union of one man and one woman only. You will recall that at the General Synod of 2007 the motion to move forward on SSB's was defeated. To call the church "unchristian" is more than anyone is able to proclaim, for that would classify all those still part of the ACoC as unchristian also, both bishops, priests, deacons and lay people. For what its worth neither I nor the diocese I am in has any intention of proceeding with the blessing of SSB's, its not where we are. We are more focused on the work of the gospel. But because I happen to be a member of the ACoC, according to the logic of some, I am now "unchristian". I think this is dangerous territory for anyone to stray into. I would be very interested in knowing what the ANIC bishops, such as bishop Harvey, would say on this matter. Is it his/their belief now that all members of the ACoC are unchristian? Perhaps someone could let me know? As well, because the Church of England and others still see the ACoC as the official church of this country does that mean also that it too is unchristian? One must follow logic to its fullest. Incidentally, I am told that unofficially the CoE has been doing SSB's long before there was ever one done in Canada, even before New Westminster. David: As far as I can see the Anglican Church of Canada has not abandoned any of the core doctrines of faith such as the creeds, the trinity, the birth, death & resurrection of Jesus. Liturgy and worship are being done all over the ACoC the same today as 25 years ago. I have not been instructed to teach or preach anything different now than when I was ordained in 1992. In addition the marriage canon of the ACoC has not been changed in any way, it recognizes marriage as a union of one man and one woman only. You will recall that at the General Synod of 2007 the motion to move forward on SSB’s was defeated. To call the church “unchristian” is more than anyone is able to proclaim, for that would classify all those still part of the ACoC as unchristian also, both bishops, priests, deacons and lay people. For what its worth neither I nor the diocese I am in has any intention of proceeding with the blessing of SSB’s, its not where we are. We are more focused on the work of the gospel. But because I happen to be a member of the ACoC, according to the logic of some, I am now “unchristian”. I think this is dangerous territory for anyone to stray into. I would be very interested in knowing what the ANIC bishops, such as bishop Harvey, would say on this matter. Is it his/their belief now that all members of the ACoC are unchristian? Perhaps someone could let me know? As well, because the Church of England and others still see the ACoC as the official church of this country does that mean also that it too is unchristian? One must follow logic to its fullest. Incidentally, I am told that unofficially the CoE has been doing SSB’s long before there was ever one done in Canada, even before New Westminster.

]]> By: Warren http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2009/08/26/the-decline-and-fall-of-the-anglican-church-of-canada/comment-page-2/#comment-183632 Warren Sun, 20 Sep 2009 06:08:02 +0000 http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2009/08/26/the-decline-and-fall-of-the-anglican-church-of-canada/#comment-183632 Randy (#56), I had sympathy for your position until you mentioned residential schools. If you are going to use a strawman argument, you could do much better. I don't doubt that people did leave the ACoC over the abuse in the residential schools, but so what? If there was logical rigour in your argument, you would presumably claim that one should at least consider the possibility that the abusers may have been acting in accordance with Scripture and the leading of the Holy Spirit. Since I believe this is not your position, I conclude that your argument is inconsistent. (P.S. For anyone inclined to review my previous comments, I admit up front that you will likely find inconsistencies.) Randy (#56), I had sympathy for your position until you mentioned residential schools. If you are going to use a strawman argument, you could do much better. I don’t doubt that people did leave the ACoC over the abuse in the residential schools, but so what? If there was logical rigour in your argument, you would presumably claim that one should at least consider the possibility that the abusers may have been acting in accordance with Scripture and the leading of the Holy Spirit. Since I believe this is not your position, I conclude that your argument is inconsistent. (P.S. For anyone inclined to review my previous comments, I admit up front that you will likely find inconsistencies.)

]]> By: David http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2009/08/26/the-decline-and-fall-of-the-anglican-church-of-canada/comment-page-2/#comment-183618 David Sun, 20 Sep 2009 02:47:04 +0000 http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2009/08/26/the-decline-and-fall-of-the-anglican-church-of-canada/#comment-183618 Randy, ANiC parishes did not realign because the ACoC isn't perfect, but because a number of dioceses - and arguably the entire ACoC - have adopted a faith that is no longer Christian. Much of this is documented <b><a href="http://www.americananglican.org/assets/Publications/ANiC-report-on-ACoC-FINAL.pdf" rel="nofollow">here</a></b>. Had the ACoC declared that the Residential School abuse was "holy" or "not contrary to core doctrine" I imagine there would have even more departures - earlier. Randy,

ANiC parishes did not realign because the ACoC isn’t perfect, but because a number of dioceses – and arguably the entire ACoC – have adopted a faith that is no longer Christian. Much of this is documented here.

Had the ACoC declared that the Residential School abuse was “holy” or “not contrary to core doctrine” I imagine there would have even more departures – earlier.

]]> By: Randy http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2009/08/26/the-decline-and-fall-of-the-anglican-church-of-canada/comment-page-2/#comment-183617 Randy Sun, 20 Sep 2009 01:42:01 +0000 http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2009/08/26/the-decline-and-fall-of-the-anglican-church-of-canada/#comment-183617 #55 - granted I am under no illusion that the ACoC is a perfect church, nor am I aware of where to find one, anymore than I am under no illusion that there is one perfect person (only Jesus Christ himself), so I am not in any position to judge anyone; or any church that has thousands of spirit - led and faithful people attending each and every Sunday. If I am to follow the logic in post #55 they are heretics and in danger of eternal damnation unless they leave the ACoC, as God has left that church. I must object to that kind of logic, no church has the ability to save anyone, as that, to a large degree is determined by a personal relationship with our Saviour. The church can lead and instruct and teach, etc but the journey of faith is your's and mine. I refuse to believe that God has abandoned the ACoC. Sure, God no doubt is calling the Church to accountability and repentance, as He has done for 2000 years plus. Strange that people did not leave the church when there was evidence of abuse in Residential Schools, that was known years and years ago, it took the issue of SSB's to bring about alignment with the Southern Cone, the Network, ACNA, etc. Were there not other issues that at least were equally repugnant? If the ANIC and the ACNA can be proven to be the perfect church where there is no sin than God bless you all and may every Anglican in Canada join #55 – granted I am under no illusion that the ACoC is a perfect church, nor am I aware of where to find one, anymore than I am under no illusion that there is one perfect person (only Jesus Christ himself), so I am not in any position to judge anyone; or any church that has thousands of spirit – led and faithful people attending each and every Sunday. If I am to follow the logic in post #55 they are heretics and in danger of eternal damnation unless they leave the ACoC, as God has left that church. I must object to that kind of logic, no church has the ability to save anyone, as that, to a large degree is determined by a personal relationship with our Saviour. The church can lead and instruct and teach, etc but the journey of faith is your’s and mine. I refuse to believe that God has abandoned the ACoC. Sure, God no doubt is calling the Church to accountability and repentance, as He has done for 2000 years plus. Strange that people did not leave the church when there was evidence of abuse in Residential Schools, that was known years and years ago, it took the issue of SSB’s to bring about alignment with the Southern Cone, the Network, ACNA, etc. Were there not other issues that at least were equally repugnant? If the ANIC and the ACNA can be proven to be the perfect church where there is no sin than God bless you all and may every Anglican in Canada join

]]> By: Frank Wirrell http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2009/08/26/the-decline-and-fall-of-the-anglican-church-of-canada/comment-page-2/#comment-182443 Frank Wirrell Wed, 16 Sep 2009 14:50:41 +0000 http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2009/08/26/the-decline-and-fall-of-the-anglican-church-of-canada/#comment-182443 For Randy #47:- The failure by the Primate and the House of Bishops to take action against the apostasy that reigns within the ACoC would definitely tend to show that the comments by Gerry #42 are legitimate. You might well find so-called “spiritual persons” but that, in itself, does not mean they are Christian. Such persons are found in all religions. However, to be an Anglican one must first be a Christian and that means accepting both the authority of Scripture and the uniqueness of Jesus Christ. The actions, or more correctly the failure to take action, by the Primate or the House of Bishops against the growing apostasy as being promoted in Niagara and New Westminster can only result in the ACoC losing any and all claims to be a Christian church and reduces it to nothing more than a social club where everyone does his/her own thing. As Christians we are not called to fall in line with society and its beliefs but we are called to witness to society. That clearly cannot and will not happen if the current descent into apostasy is not checked. No Christian could possibly support the ACoC in its present state and any clergy person (bishop or otherwise) that fails to speak up and take appropriate action is obviously more concerned with job security than the truth of the Gospel. It has been stated in previous submissions that “the gates of Hell will not prevail”. However, when a church willingly and deliberately turns from the Gospel it loses that promise. Both as a church and as individuals we are called to make a commitment. For Randy #47:-
The failure by the Primate and the House of Bishops to take action against the apostasy that reigns within the ACoC would definitely tend to show that the comments by Gerry #42 are legitimate. You might well find so-called “spiritual persons” but that, in itself, does not mean they are Christian. Such persons are found in all religions. However, to be an Anglican one must first be a Christian and that means accepting both the authority of Scripture and the uniqueness of Jesus Christ. The actions, or more correctly the failure to take action, by the Primate or the House of Bishops against the growing apostasy as being promoted in Niagara and New Westminster can only result in the ACoC losing any and all claims to be a Christian church and reduces it to nothing more than a social club where everyone does his/her own thing. As Christians we are not called to fall in line with society and its beliefs but we are called to witness to society. That clearly cannot and will not happen if the current descent into apostasy is not checked. No Christian could possibly support the ACoC in its present state and any clergy person (bishop or otherwise) that fails to speak up and take appropriate action is obviously more concerned with job security than the truth of the Gospel.
It has been stated in previous submissions that “the gates of Hell will not prevail”. However, when a church willingly and deliberately turns from the Gospel it loses that promise. Both as a church and as individuals we are called to make a commitment.

]]> By: Stuck in Toronto http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2009/08/26/the-decline-and-fall-of-the-anglican-church-of-canada/comment-page-2/#comment-179551 Stuck in Toronto Sat, 05 Sep 2009 01:15:48 +0000 http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2009/08/26/the-decline-and-fall-of-the-anglican-church-of-canada/#comment-179551 #50 Margo - you said "I was surprised, shocked and left shaking in my boots at the responsibility of it all. I mean this with all respect sister (or Reverend) if you have been ordained. Did this happen at the time of your calling or during your training/upper level degree? I would like to hear of your experiences that caused such trauma. Did they not teach you that "Love casts out fear". In Christ and with Love. #50 Margo – you said “I was surprised, shocked and left shaking in my boots at the responsibility of it all.
I mean this with all respect sister (or Reverend) if you have been ordained. Did this happen at the time of your calling or during your training/upper level degree? I would like to hear of your experiences that caused such trauma. Did they not teach you that “Love casts out fear”.
In Christ and with Love.

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