On its “Dream the Church, Vision 2019″ site, the ACoC is soliciting opinions on what its members think God wants the church to be in 2019. Here is one interesting response:
There exist in the Anglican Church, at least in North American, some very deep, fundamental problems that have been pervasive for some time. Among them are:
1. Anglicans in the pew do not know their Bible. They rarely read their Bibles or take them to church services. I know, as I was one of them for years, until I began studying with Bible Study Fellowship International. It is shameful that very few Anglicans can even find their way around the Bible or know what it says exactly. The leaders and shepherds of the church have failed in this regard to teach the Scriptures to the congregants; therefore, they need to encourage Biblical knowledge and study.
2. Anglicans do not hear the Gospel message; they are just served up cute homilies by their rectors. It wasn’t until I went to an evangelical camp one summer as a youth that I heard the gospel message that I was a sinner, that Jesus died for those sins, and that I could have eternal life through Him. I had never heard that truthful but simple message before from my Anglican church or camp experiences, yet that message opened to me a personal relationship with our Lord Jesus Christ. So then, the gospel message needs to be proclaimed in Anglican churches on Sundays throughout our nation, as this has eternal consequences.
3. The Anglican church is too worried and too focused on being politically correct instead of being concerned about being Biblically and Spiritually correct. Culture changes, swinging from left to right, but the Word of God does not change. We are to please God and not society, listen to God and not other voices, and be open to the movement of the Spirit and not the movement of others’ agendas. God’s wisdom is far superior to our wisdom, and we do not have the right to rewrite His commands as we so please or as is convenient for us. The church, then, needs to focus on following God and preaching the gospel message instead of following cultural and social philosophies.
I replied to the comments of retired Archbishop Hambidge but they would not allow my comments to remain on the site. If you make any comment criticizing the apostasy of current bishops or calling on retired clergy to stand up against apostasy, they will not allow such comments to stand. The poster of the comment quoted is absolutely correct but the site will not allow any comment suggesting action be taken to remedy the situation.
Wow! Clear, concise and perceptive. The writer addresses core problems – and cures – with surgical precision.
Thanks for finding this nugget, David! May God bless the writer. And may the ACoC hear and respond to this prophetic call to turn back to God and His Word.
Very clear, concise, and perceptive I hope the ACC is listening !!!!!!
I’m actually a little surprised that that post was allowed to stand, to tell you the truth.
I left some quite polite comments on the site and they were deleted almost immediately; no idea why, really.
How polite was ‘quite’ polite David?
Yes, I admit I was wondering that myself…
As for Bible studies it is so amazing how much of the Prayerbook is in the Bible. LOL. Perhaps he was in a “modern” Anglican church? As for the other two observations the writer is spot on.
Frank Wirrell #1 said exactly what I intended to say about the apostasy leading the ACoC. it amazes me that the members in the ACoC cannot or will not allow themselves to see and hear what they are actually seeing and hearing. Talk about loosafur appearing as a shining light to some rather than the darkness he really is……………shame that it takes so many including me so very long to see the truth, to hear the truth and to try to carry out the truth on this walk we are on.
Pray for the ACoC and their leadership?………desperately needed.
Wow, the truth is finally comming out. My wife and I were at a multi religious function some time ago where a high ranking Anglican clergy person spoke and brought greetings. That clergy persons opening remarks laughlingly and jokeingly stated “we Anglicans do not love Jesus very much” and the clergy person measured out between thumb and forefinger how much Anglicans love Jesus. How disgusting! Here is a clergy who stands in front of a congregation at Baptism, Bible Study, Confirmation, Mariage, Burial and regular Worship services, represents the bishop in a high capacity, preaches right from wrong (although this I have to question) and makes a statement such as this. It is high time for those in authority to weed those types out of the ACOC. I feel if this person wants to say something of this nature, that person should indicate that it is solely their own beliefs and not to include me and other Anglican believers in their own unorthodoxicy. As for the 2019 my vision is to get rid of most of the leaders of the ACOC as well as many of the “no gospel stand” clergy who are currently making bad decisions and who seemingly do not care which way Anglicism is headed as long as they get their fat pay cheques. Although a longtime member of the ACOC, my walk is not in man’s ways but in God’s ways.
What struck me as I perused this Blog for the first time and submitted several comments ..time will tell.. the amount of restriction applied to it. All of my comments were held for approval.
Now compare that to our Blog other than a response to certain key words and the odd slap on the wrist by Kate Free and open debate is alive and well. Not so in ACoC.
I think it’s time we shifted our theme away from AcoC and towards AcNA. ++ Duncan at the inaugral AcNA conference said that it was time to move forward. I agree, the focus must now be on were we are going and not were we have been.
Wat do you say Kate, David?
Stuck,
We try and cover anything that might be of interest and that certainly includes the ACNA. However, some people are still stuck in the ACoC either by circumstance or choice, so what the ACoC is up to is relevant.
Even those of us who have escaped the clutches of the ACoC find that they are still breathing down our necks while diligently pursuing what they believe to be their material assets through the courts.
From a parish perspective, I think ANiC congregations are moving forward at – for Anglicans – a rather extraordinary rate.
I agree, David, especially that last line..
I stand corrected to a point. I do hope in the near future we can see some articles or writings reflecting the only Anglican future (I can see) in North America. Although I am reminded that this is an Essentials Blog. The one thing I did appreciate about the AcoC blog was the idea. – TO have a venue based on converstations of individual ideas about our new church and our thoughts of her future would be a great expression. Without the heavy handedness of course.
Hello 13 David
I am one of those Anglicans “stuck” in the ACoC, simply because there is no other Anglican group present in my area (Owen Sound, Ontario). I have tried to find other ANiC people, and even met with ANiC representatives who were kind enough to come to our home.
In the meantime, I try to be a “good” Anglican (understanding that only through God is anything “good”). Perhaps / hopefully ANiC will continue to grow and expand, and someday plant a group in my area.
As for the ACoC finding repentance, I am sorry to think that the infection has run too deep, and is likely beyond healing. None-the-less, we should all continue to Pray.
I wonder how many there are out there that are “STUCK” in the
ACoC and want out but cannot seem to find other likeminded Anglicans in their area. I have a feeling there are more than one might think and perhaps if they came on this site under a nom de plume and identified their area, they might be able to get some small house church plants started.
How about it out there “Stucks”?
Are there any in Bay de Verde, Nfld? How about Whitbourne or other places on the Avalon Peninsula.
16 one of those Anglicans “stuck” in the ACoC,
It only takes two gathered in His name. Some people are using Morning Prayer and Evening Prayer and some Compline and are holding services without benefit of clergy. Don’t wait for others to start a group, just do it. If you need to be in a church setting start a early morning Sunday service before the main service at your “local” ACoC. Just land in early and start praying. (Out loud, sing it if you can) They won’t know what to do with you. Then boycott the main BAS service and go home. Others will join. Just keep doing it.
For #17
Undoubtedly there are multitudes of believers who are ‘STUCK’ due primarily to the failure of their priests and other clergy to speak up against the apostasy that reigns within the ACoC. I am satisfied that there would be a mass exodus from the ACoC if clergy at all levels advised parishioners of the facts. The sole remedy is for proper action by the claimed orthodox bishops and other clergy to call their apostate colleagues to account. Tragically that is not likely to happen unless they are hit over the head with a 4 x8 by the Holy Spirit. Most seem to think that the colour of their shirt and the white collar makes God subject to their whims. Indeed we need to pray for their conversion.
I am more than happy to facilitate the exchange of email addresses for people.
I remain in the ACoC because, as previously mentioned here, there is no other group in my Diocese – BUT and it is a BIG BUT I am fortunate that my Archbishop is a Bible-believing, preaching, leader. My rector is as well. I do not believe there are many within the congregation I belong to that are as informed as I am – I choose to be so. I am thankful for blogs such as this along with, such as, Virtue on Line to keep me informed – I also do my own research to get both sides of any given presentations.
It is my belief that those ‘in the pews’ who are not informed do not want to be informed – they are not ready to question why God’s Word is not preached/taught from the pulpits – don’t bother me with truth – I come to church cause it is the ‘thing’ to do.
I sound very bitter – and in a sense I am – I wish ‘man’ would get out of the way and allow God to enter all ‘His’ houses. God, to my way of thinking, is so seldom part of any equation talked about in ACoC communiques or press releases these days.
Enough said – Thanks for keep this blog flowing to inform those of us who care to be informed.
#21 – You are indeed fortunate if your rector and Archbishop are true believers. If that is the case I would like to see some action by your Archbishop to at least attempt to bring the apostates to account. The time has long since past for orthodox leaders to stand up as opposed to “sit on the fence” and watch the destruction of the church.
I’m in the ACoC at the moment, but I wouldn’t consider myself “stuck” there. There’s an AMiA church about 15 km from where I live, but the ACoC parish (where I grew up, and is about a 500m walk), at least as I’ve experienced it, is better in almost every respect. At the same time, two of the best, most biblically faithful sermons I’ve heard this year happened to be in Diocese of Niagara parishes. When I move to Toronto later this year, I’ll probably go to a ACoC parish, not because I particularly like what the leadership is up to, but because that happens to be the affiliation of the best churches in the area.
Kate; In the ANiC newsletters we have been asked on several occasions to pray for ways to assist our orphaned members such as my Owen Sound Brother. I suggested a Blog were “orphans could communicate with each other, make contacts and feel less alone. I even volunteered to begin one. I heard nothing back. I have now started to create (Hard Going believe me) a web-site with a Blog called unity2bas1.com, it hasn’t gone to press yet. and Unity will be the main theme. This has not been approved by ANiC and therefore does not have any authority. However you guys do, and I would love to see a well publicized blog open to all for the purpose of allowing “Orphans” to Communicate and for disenfranchised Anglicans to vent particularly those who are “stuck” in the quagmire that the ACoC is becoming.
I believe “House Churches” and Small group Ministries” have much easier time of creating solidarity in Christ and with such a non-proselytizing Blog forum the opportunities for growth in this On-tare-I-o, particularly the Dioceases of Toronto and Huron could be well served.
Gerry – Lort tunderin mackerals effen i had to gasss jarge ida said you was a trapper. shuddah said so anyways, God bless ya ol son. You and the famous other trapper Don, you know, da Bishop God bless em.
Frank #13 I know how you feel – but we must be as gentle as Doves, after all “sufficient unto the day is the evil therof.”
Andrew, dear brother – convienence has been eliminated in the Anglican communion we have been forced to make choices although sad heartbreaking and so wrong, never the less choices are required and in all of our Lord’s teachings convienence never has been one.
Stuck (#25): My point was not to emphasize the distances, but that the local ACoC church is much healthier than the one affiliated with ACNA. Were the distances reversed, I would probably still attend this parish. The solution to the present nastiness in every area is not simply to join ANiC – though undoubtedly it is the best option in some parishes. Decrepit as it is, the ACoC is still a far more effective tool for the propagation of the gospel in the vast majority of communities across the country.
I’m really quite surprised to hear you say that Andrew. You saw what happened in Ottawa. Do you really believe that last sentence you wrote? How long do you think biblically faithful ACoC priests will be free to preach the Gospel? I would argue that they can’t really do it now without constantly looking over their shoulders.
Andrew:
I do not understand you at all. I don’t know you, but based on your last entry I can only come to a likely conclusion that it is just “too much trouble” to bother getting out from among the apostates into something much better.
If that is the case, then you could be construed as being a believer in the ways and methods of the ACoC at this present time. If that is the case, then one could conclude that your statement #26 was designed to let me and others know that you really are on the side of the Primate and people like the bishop of the diocese of niagara.
Please clarify for me your thinking as you have left me befuddled!
Andrew:
In #28 I said “into something better”……by that I did not mean just the ANiC or the new North American Province but also I meant other Churches that are preaching the Gospel in Truth….such as some non-denominational churches or Baptist or Pentacostal churches also. There is a wide diversity of Solid Rock Christian Churches that will enable you to escape the clutches of the ACoC, If indeed you ever want to escape.
Andrew: If you are moving to the Scarborough area of Toronto you are welcome to come to my church. http://www.stniniansanglican.org/index.html
I met with my rector this morning to express my intention to leave the ACoC and seek a Bible-Believing church in my community (Sackville, N.B.). I have found it depressing, demoralizing and spiritually dangerous to be a member (albeit non-tithing) of the Anglican Church of Canada as it moves further and further away from God’s Word.
My rector was very kind and understanding, and said he has expected that I would make this decision for some time. He also did not try to persuade me to change my mind. I am going to take some time in discernment and then I guess I will resign my license as a Layreader and perhaps write to the bishop.
I joined ANiC last year (as an ‘orphan’) but as there are no evangelical ACNA churches in my community or area, I guess I will become a Baptist or Plymouth Brother until I finish my undergrad and move somewhere else. Though this decision has been long in the making, I am very sad to have to ‘shake the dust of my feet’ from the ACoC as it is truly horrible to see a whole church Hell-bent. I wept for it . . .
Kate and David Re; Charles #31.
I suspect this has been and still is going on with greater frequency than any of us suspect. I respect AniC’s position against proselytization and our call to pray for our brothers and sisters in AcoC. However we cannot afford to lose the Charlies of our faith.
“a well publicized blog open to all for the purpose of allowing “Orphans” to Communicate and for disenfranchised Anglicans to vent particularly those who are “stuck” in the quagmire that the ACoC is becoming.
I believe “House Churches” and Small group Ministries” have much easier time of creating solidarity in Christ and with such a non-proselytizing Blog forum” and with co-ordinated help and encouragement this could be a door to expanding the oh so necessary footprint or our Anglican Church in North America.
Charles, I to have wept, I do so today as I pray for you and your discernment. There are other alternatives to leaving the Anglican Communion. If you have not done so please listen to this mans talk at the inauguration of ACNA http://www.anglicantv.org/node/330
I don’t agree with all of Rick Warren’s theology but He spoke clearly of the success of Saddleback church and I believe him when he speaks of how this came about.
I believe that if you started a Small Group in the Name of ACNA and you properly prepared to receive people (this would need understanding from resources within ACNA and ANiC) for this than Our Father would send them to you. I would ask you to consider being pro-active in His Name (this is the calling) rather than re-active. I would also recommend that you embark on this with one other of like mind. The unity you will experience is awesome and powerful. ………Gerry my brother this goes for you to.
Stuck:
Whilst I am a re-active personality, you really know nothing of me or what I am involved with in my ANiC Church. Shouldn’t be so quick off the mark my Brother.
God Bless
There are two ANiC parishes in Newfoundland.
RE#32 I have something in the works, just waiting to hear back from a couple of people. Stay tuned!
For now – anyone who is interested in getting in touch with other blog readers to form a bible study or house group in your area, email your contact info to the blog contact email. If I get more than one person in the same city I will put you in touch with each other.
Kate (#27): I think you misunderstand me. I’m not arguing that joining ANiC wasn’t the right move in Ottawa, and ANiC now has a fairly effective presence in the city. All I wanted to point out is that the Network only has some thirty parishes, whereas the ACoC has had the benefit of a few centuries to grow to the point where there is a parish in practically every community in the country. It’s this scale I was referring to, mainly, when I said that “the ACoC is still a far more effective tool for the propagation of the gospel”. Surely even a church with somewhat limited leadership is still better than nothing. Furthermore, mere affiliation with the right body does not necessarily make a good church.
Take my grandparents’ church, in a relatively remote rural community, which they’ve attended for their entire lives (and my grandfather’s parents before them), and has a fairly solid priest. Either they could stay in that parish and continue to seek and worship Christ with the people they have known for decades, and endure a few disagreements with the bishop; or they could go off and start a house church of some sort (which they wouldn’t have the energy to do in any case), and abandon their past, their community, and their pattern of worship. To what end? The ministry of their church really isn’t being inhibited in any way by the diocese at this stage (unlike the situation in Ottawa). This parish is the only Christian presence in this small community, which can hardly sustain one church, let alone two. Thus, in a place such as this, the right thing to do is still to go to the ACoC parish, and disarm the snares rather than let others fall into them. People who make this decision need to be respected, and not simply branded as lazy, apostate, and so forth.
If you would like a more detailed argument concerning this from a broader perspective, there’s an interesting essay from several years ago written from a United Methodist perspective in the book Ancient & Postmodern Christianity, starting at p. 170.
OK, fair enough, you have a point. I still think that using “propogation of the Gospel” and “ACoC” in the same breath won’t be possible in 20 years.
Yes, the way things are going, it certainly looks quite grim. Hope that won’t come to pass, though.
Gerry – Easy partner. You are right, unfortunately I don’t know you! Your question, asked in #17. led me to assume (your teacher was right Kate) that you were looking for others in your area. I had no idea you belonged to an ANiC Church. For my erroneous outburst I truly apologize.
I have a great passion for spiritual unity. This has evolved from many years of study about Small Group Ministries. My passion along with my anger sometimes leaves me less capable.
LOL. I have to relearn that the hard way every once in a while.
I missed comment 11 at first. Stuck, you weren’t singled out for comment moderation. There are some words that trigger “hold comment for moderation”. Not many, but a few.
Kate – my fault, the Blog I was criticizing in #11 was the AcoC Blog read the whole thing
Assumption is a well implanted Human frailty.
I sure appreciate your quick response to Orphans – I’m excited
#40 – Stuck -
I know how you feel !!! I too would prefer to see spiritual unity, however I have no time for unity with the wrong spirit if you know what I mean…right!
Blessings
For Charles #31
You have stated your rector was kind and understanding and obviously polite. The only question I have is what action is or has he taken to educate the members in his congregation. If the answer is nothing, then one must conclude he is among the majority that are quite content to sit back and allow the church to descend into the abyss of apostasy and irrelevance. If he is committed to the vows he made at his ordination, he would seek to address apostasy even if that means challenging his bishop.
The problem within the ACoC would be quickly addressed if so-called bishops and other clergy called their apostate colleagues to account. Certainly from a secular standpoint an employee would be readily dismissed if he/she were to act improperly and that situation should also apply within the church. Indeed we need to pray for our clergy but the time has come for some tough love if that is necessary to cause them to properly fulfil their duties. Any clergy person, priest or bishop, that maintains the position of apostasy should be instantly removed from office and be defrocked if there is no sign or desire to repent.
Andrew #37 quote “Thus, in a place such as this, the right thing to do is still to go to the ACoC parish, and disarm the snares rather than let others fall into them. ”
Andrew I do try to understand your logic in #37 (complete), however, with regard to the little sentence above, my question is this:
1) Do your grandparents even know what is going on in the ACoC?
2) Do their weekly givings go on upline to the Diocese (portion)?
3) Is their Priest talking about the apostasy in the ACoC?
4) If it is a relatively small church, and if the priest is not following the doctrine of the apostates, why not lead them all out of the ACoC and form a new ANiC church?
Believe me, I do have compassion for the older folks and the “fix” that they are in, however, it is my belief that following Jesus Christ, the Supremacy of the Holy Scriptures and True Doctrine is much more important than staying in a church because of our age or any other excuse.
Blessings to You and your Grandparents
Andrew (#37), your reference to a United Methodist perspective is interesting. If you back up 250 years to John and Charles Wesley and the founding of methodism, and examine revival stemming from the powerful preaching of George Whitefield, you will find that God did not need an existing parish infrastructure and leadership hierarchy to move in a mighty way. Revival occurred in spite of the Church of England, not because of it. That said, I appreciate that their are circumstances where the decision to leave or stay is very difficult. Hopefully those involved are looking to God’s Word and, through diligent prayer, seeking His guidance. It is doubtful that they will reach the right conclusion through their own wisdom and strength.
You do know that there is an ANiC parish in Toronto, don’t you?
Yes I do, Kate.
Ok, just checking. Thought maybe you thought of yourself as an “orphan”….