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	<title>Comments on: Day 10 – ANiC v Diocese of New Westminster – June 10, 2009</title>
	<link>http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2009/06/11/day-10-anic-v-diocese-of-new-westminster-june-10-2009/</link>
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	<pubDate>Wed, 08 Sep 2010 09:49:29 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Toral</title>
		<link>http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2009/06/11/day-10-anic-v-diocese-of-new-westminster-june-10-2009/#comment-151414</link>
		<author>Toral</author>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 23:17:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2009/06/11/day-10-anic-v-diocese-of-new-westminster-june-10-2009/#comment-151414</guid>
					<description>There are 2 aspects of ACoC's argument which should be of some hope.

First is the ACoC's frequent reliance on American cases, which are utterly irrelevant as their common law on the issue is completely different from ours. Original-purposes trusts do not exist there, being incompatible with the 1st Amendment. It is stranfe especially ro see them bringing up the Dennis Canon, under which American parishes lose after a division, becausae Canada has no counterpart to the Dennis Canon.

Second is their very strange insistence that the properties are not subject to an original purpose trust, in spite of three centuries ogfcommon law to the contrary, including a 1966 Supreme Court of Canada decision  explicitly reaffirming the rule of the Free Church case as still applyinh in Canada, as discussed at pages 31 and 32 of our factum.

We might pray simply that the judge have a clear understanding of the law on these issues.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are 2 aspects of ACoC&#8217;s argument which should be of some hope.</p>
<p>First is the ACoC&#8217;s frequent reliance on American cases, which are utterly irrelevant as their common law on the issue is completely different from ours. Original-purposes trusts do not exist there, being incompatible with the 1st Amendment. It is stranfe especially ro see them bringing up the Dennis Canon, under which American parishes lose after a division, becausae Canada has no counterpart to the Dennis Canon.</p>
<p>Second is their very strange insistence that the properties are not subject to an original purpose trust, in spite of three centuries ogfcommon law to the contrary, including a 1966 Supreme Court of Canada decision  explicitly reaffirming the rule of the Free Church case as still applyinh in Canada, as discussed at pages 31 and 32 of our factum.</p>
<p>We might pray simply that the judge have a clear understanding of the law on these issues.</p>
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		<title>By: Winter Traveler</title>
		<link>http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2009/06/11/day-10-anic-v-diocese-of-new-westminster-june-10-2009/#comment-151509</link>
		<author>Winter Traveler</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Jun 2009 02:39:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2009/06/11/day-10-anic-v-diocese-of-new-westminster-june-10-2009/#comment-151509</guid>
					<description>It is my understanding that many biblically faithful Anglicans who chose to stay within the ACoC did so to provide an orthodox  witness within that organization.  To now see their witness demeaned by the Diocese's lawyers as simply being evidence that division along theological grounds by ANIC was unnecessary must be very disconcerting to them.  How sad to see their courageous decison being used in this manner.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is my understanding that many biblically faithful Anglicans who chose to stay within the ACoC did so to provide an orthodox  witness within that organization.  To now see their witness demeaned by the Diocese&#8217;s lawyers as simply being evidence that division along theological grounds by ANIC was unnecessary must be very disconcerting to them.  How sad to see their courageous decison being used in this manner.</p>
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		<title>By: Kate</title>
		<link>http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2009/06/11/day-10-anic-v-diocese-of-new-westminster-june-10-2009/#comment-151523</link>
		<author>Kate</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Jun 2009 03:03:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2009/06/11/day-10-anic-v-diocese-of-new-westminster-june-10-2009/#comment-151523</guid>
					<description>But not surprising.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But not surprising.</p>
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		<title>By: L. G. Bloomquist</title>
		<link>http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2009/06/11/day-10-anic-v-diocese-of-new-westminster-june-10-2009/#comment-151771</link>
		<author>L. G. Bloomquist</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Jun 2009 12:52:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2009/06/11/day-10-anic-v-diocese-of-new-westminster-june-10-2009/#comment-151771</guid>
					<description>I have consistently warned other conservative colleagues in orders and preparing for orders about the present dangers of staying within the Aoc (the Anglican organization in Canada, formerly known as the Anglican Church of Canada). It may be explicit -- as in the court case -- or it may be subtle -- said in deanery meetings, diocesan committee staffing, or behind closed doors -- but their witness will be consistently co-opted by those only too ready to welcome conservatives as proof that the classical liberal "big tent" still exists and the rest of us are "schismatics" (sic). As such, in staying in and by their presence bearing witness that "yes together we can", these conservatives will consistently find that the witness that THEY intend to promote the gospel will be used by OTHERS as a weapon against us who have found it necessary to stake our claim with God's faithful people in the Anglican Church in North America and in opposition to the direction of the Aoc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have consistently warned other conservative colleagues in orders and preparing for orders about the present dangers of staying within the Aoc (the Anglican organization in Canada, formerly known as the Anglican Church of Canada). It may be explicit &#8212; as in the court case &#8212; or it may be subtle &#8212; said in deanery meetings, diocesan committee staffing, or behind closed doors &#8212; but their witness will be consistently co-opted by those only too ready to welcome conservatives as proof that the classical liberal &#8220;big tent&#8221; still exists and the rest of us are &#8220;schismatics&#8221; (sic). As such, in staying in and by their presence bearing witness that &#8220;yes together we can&#8221;, these conservatives will consistently find that the witness that THEY intend to promote the gospel will be used by OTHERS as a weapon against us who have found it necessary to stake our claim with God&#8217;s faithful people in the Anglican Church in North America and in opposition to the direction of the Aoc.</p>
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		<title>By: AMPisAnglican</title>
		<link>http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2009/06/11/day-10-anic-v-diocese-of-new-westminster-june-10-2009/#comment-151845</link>
		<author>AMPisAnglican</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Jun 2009 15:44:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2009/06/11/day-10-anic-v-diocese-of-new-westminster-june-10-2009/#comment-151845</guid>
					<description>Please forward this to all concerned.

I am one of the "Conservative" Anglicans still counted within the ACoC numbers.  If there were an ANiC Parish or Congregation in my area, I would have already joined it.  But becuase there are no ANiC Parishes or Congregations in my area, I continue to Worship God in the Anglican way at an ACoC Parish.  This in no way indicates any acceptance on my part of the changes that have been inflicted upon the ACoC.

Furthermore, for me the following issues are Communion Breaking, no matter what others have to say:
Priests in a homosexual relationship
A cerimony of any kind which legitimizes in any way a homosexual relationship
Any departure, no matter how small, from the Solemn Declaration, and also the 39 Articles of Religion (as they are written in the Canadian 1962 Book of Common Prayer)

Additionally, although it has been determined that Marriage is not a Holy Sacrement, for me it is.  My reasoning is simply this.  Jesus gave us specific and direct lessons/teachings pertaining to Marriage in Matthew 19:1-12 and Mark 10:1-12.  Any "priest" or "bishop" who teachings anything that is contrary to these Teachings of Jesus is a false prophet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Please forward this to all concerned.</p>
<p>I am one of the &#8220;Conservative&#8221; Anglicans still counted within the ACoC numbers.  If there were an ANiC Parish or Congregation in my area, I would have already joined it.  But becuase there are no ANiC Parishes or Congregations in my area, I continue to Worship God in the Anglican way at an ACoC Parish.  This in no way indicates any acceptance on my part of the changes that have been inflicted upon the ACoC.</p>
<p>Furthermore, for me the following issues are Communion Breaking, no matter what others have to say:<br />
Priests in a homosexual relationship<br />
A cerimony of any kind which legitimizes in any way a homosexual relationship<br />
Any departure, no matter how small, from the Solemn Declaration, and also the 39 Articles of Religion (as they are written in the Canadian 1962 Book of Common Prayer)</p>
<p>Additionally, although it has been determined that Marriage is not a Holy Sacrement, for me it is.  My reasoning is simply this.  Jesus gave us specific and direct lessons/teachings pertaining to Marriage in Matthew 19:1-12 and Mark 10:1-12.  Any &#8220;priest&#8221; or &#8220;bishop&#8221; who teachings anything that is contrary to these Teachings of Jesus is a false prophet.</p>
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		<title>By: Gordon Arthur</title>
		<link>http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2009/06/11/day-10-anic-v-diocese-of-new-westminster-june-10-2009/#comment-151900</link>
		<author>Gordon Arthur</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Jun 2009 17:24:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2009/06/11/day-10-anic-v-diocese-of-new-westminster-june-10-2009/#comment-151900</guid>
					<description>I have just sent the following letter to the Anglican Journal:

In its recent case against four ANiC Churches in BC, the Diocese of New Westminster seemed to claim that the ongoing presence of theological conservatives in the diocese somehow validates same sex blessings. As far as I’m concerned, nothing could be further from the truth.

In my judgement, no Church, and a fortiori no diocese or parish, has the authority to authorise or perform such blessings. They are therefore both invalid and illicit. My continuing presence in no way signifies assent to, or acceptance of, such blessings, no matter how much New Westminster might like to kid itself otherwise.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have just sent the following letter to the Anglican Journal:</p>
<p>In its recent case against four ANiC Churches in BC, the Diocese of New Westminster seemed to claim that the ongoing presence of theological conservatives in the diocese somehow validates same sex blessings. As far as I’m concerned, nothing could be further from the truth.</p>
<p>In my judgement, no Church, and a fortiori no diocese or parish, has the authority to authorise or perform such blessings. They are therefore both invalid and illicit. My continuing presence in no way signifies assent to, or acceptance of, such blessings, no matter how much New Westminster might like to kid itself otherwise.</p>
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		<title>By: Winter Traveler</title>
		<link>http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2009/06/11/day-10-anic-v-diocese-of-new-westminster-june-10-2009/#comment-151944</link>
		<author>Winter Traveler</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Jun 2009 19:18:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2009/06/11/day-10-anic-v-diocese-of-new-westminster-june-10-2009/#comment-151944</guid>
					<description>#5 and #6
I understand that there may be no orthodox Anglican church in the areas where you live but surely there must be another biblically faithful Christian community nearby where you could worship, at least for the time being?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#5 and #6<br />
I understand that there may be no orthodox Anglican church in the areas where you live but surely there must be another biblically faithful Christian community nearby where you could worship, at least for the time being?</p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2009/06/11/day-10-anic-v-diocese-of-new-westminster-june-10-2009/#comment-151990</link>
		<author>David</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Jun 2009 20:59:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2009/06/11/day-10-anic-v-diocese-of-new-westminster-june-10-2009/#comment-151990</guid>
					<description>For the orthodox who do remain in the ACoC, Gordon's approach seems to be not a bad idea; perhaps a letter to the bishop of the relevant diocese too?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For the orthodox who do remain in the ACoC, Gordon&#8217;s approach seems to be not a bad idea; perhaps a letter to the bishop of the relevant diocese too?</p>
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		<title>By: Gordon Arthur</title>
		<link>http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2009/06/11/day-10-anic-v-diocese-of-new-westminster-june-10-2009/#comment-151993</link>
		<author>Gordon Arthur</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Jun 2009 21:07:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2009/06/11/day-10-anic-v-diocese-of-new-westminster-june-10-2009/#comment-151993</guid>
					<description>My aim is to make it more difficult for any diocese to claim that the presence of conservatives among them constitutes an endorsement of their position. It's too late for this to have any effect in this case.

To be honest, I'm not sure if it would have any effect on Michael Ingham. He's already been caught bearing false witness, as shown elsewhere in this blog.

The other consideration, is that the AJ gives priority to letters of less than 100 words. Mine is 99 words. I'd like to have said more, but I'd rather keep the chances of getting it printed as high as possible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My aim is to make it more difficult for any diocese to claim that the presence of conservatives among them constitutes an endorsement of their position. It&#8217;s too late for this to have any effect in this case.</p>
<p>To be honest, I&#8217;m not sure if it would have any effect on Michael Ingham. He&#8217;s already been caught bearing false witness, as shown elsewhere in this blog.</p>
<p>The other consideration, is that the AJ gives priority to letters of less than 100 words. Mine is 99 words. I&#8217;d like to have said more, but I&#8217;d rather keep the chances of getting it printed as high as possible.</p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2009/06/11/day-10-anic-v-diocese-of-new-westminster-june-10-2009/#comment-151996</link>
		<author>David</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Jun 2009 21:16:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2009/06/11/day-10-anic-v-diocese-of-new-westminster-june-10-2009/#comment-151996</guid>
					<description>Gordon,

For Ingham, I agree, it almost certainly would not make any difference - although it would show him that not all conservatives who remain in his diocese mean their presence to imply acquiescence with his actions; a nano-undermining of his confidence, perhaps.

For other dioceses and bishops, letter writing might bear some fruit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gordon,</p>
<p>For Ingham, I agree, it almost certainly would not make any difference - although it would show him that not all conservatives who remain in his diocese mean their presence to imply acquiescence with his actions; a nano-undermining of his confidence, perhaps.</p>
<p>For other dioceses and bishops, letter writing might bear some fruit.</p>
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		<title>By: Noli Aemulari</title>
		<link>http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2009/06/11/day-10-anic-v-diocese-of-new-westminster-june-10-2009/#comment-152320</link>
		<author>Noli Aemulari</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Jun 2009 13:28:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2009/06/11/day-10-anic-v-diocese-of-new-westminster-june-10-2009/#comment-152320</guid>
					<description>#6 Gordon
Mr. Macintosh does not argue that the presence of conservative Anglicans remaining within ACoC somehow validates same sex blessings. I don't get that at all from Cheryl's excllent report. As I make it out, Macintosh's actual point seems to be that disagreement over the issue needn't create an "insurmountable divide," as evidenced by some opposed to SSB who've been accommodated by the conscience clause and shared episcopal ministry:

quote
Mr. Macintosh said the parishes claim that this is an insurmountable divide and “we can’t stay” has to be tested and there are only 4 parishes out of the 78 in the diocese which have been so “intransigent”.  The parishes would “convert their intransigence” for an unprecedented use of Cy Pres, he said.  He compared the numbers of ANiC (29 parishes with an average Sunday attendance of 3500 people) with the ACoC (1800 parishes and approximately 625,000 members), saying “I have distilled from the evidence that other right thinking conservative Anglicans have taken a very different approach with respect to this”.   He named Archbishop Terry Buckle as a strong conservative who at one time was on the same side of the dispute but has since “reconciled” with the bishop. He said Archbishop Buckle wrote to the POR thanking them and offering to cooperate with their recommendations.  He also signed statements from the House of Bishops and the Metropolitans deploring the actions of Archbishop Venables and ANiC.

He referred to Rev Sarah Tweedale, who in an affidavit said she opposed the blessing of same-sex unions, but felt the conscience clause was sufficient to accommodate conservative clergy.  She is currently on leave from St. Clement’s where she was rector from September 1999-May 2008.  St. Clement’s, the only parish in the diocese to seek Shared Episcopal Ministry (SEM) received pastoral care from Bishop Hockin for a period of one year.

He said Rev John Oakes, incumbent of Holy Trinity in Vancouver also opposes same-sex unions, but has remained in the diocese.  He referred to a letter Rev Oakes wrote claiming he changed his position and regretted recent statements of Essentials.

He referred to other statements of witnesses (by affidavit) and claimed there is diversity within congregations.  The parishes’ “allegations of impossibility need to be tested locally and across Canada”, he said.
end quote</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#6 Gordon<br />
Mr. Macintosh does not argue that the presence of conservative Anglicans remaining within ACoC somehow validates same sex blessings. I don&#8217;t get that at all from Cheryl&#8217;s excllent report. As I make it out, Macintosh&#8217;s actual point seems to be that disagreement over the issue needn&#8217;t create an &#8220;insurmountable divide,&#8221; as evidenced by some opposed to SSB who&#8217;ve been accommodated by the conscience clause and shared episcopal ministry:</p>
<p>quote<br />
Mr. Macintosh said the parishes claim that this is an insurmountable divide and “we can’t stay” has to be tested and there are only 4 parishes out of the 78 in the diocese which have been so “intransigent”.  The parishes would “convert their intransigence” for an unprecedented use of Cy Pres, he said.  He compared the numbers of ANiC (29 parishes with an average Sunday attendance of 3500 people) with the ACoC (1800 parishes and approximately 625,000 members), saying “I have distilled from the evidence that other right thinking conservative Anglicans have taken a very different approach with respect to this”.   He named Archbishop Terry Buckle as a strong conservative who at one time was on the same side of the dispute but has since “reconciled” with the bishop. He said Archbishop Buckle wrote to the POR thanking them and offering to cooperate with their recommendations.  He also signed statements from the House of Bishops and the Metropolitans deploring the actions of Archbishop Venables and ANiC.</p>
<p>He referred to Rev Sarah Tweedale, who in an affidavit said she opposed the blessing of same-sex unions, but felt the conscience clause was sufficient to accommodate conservative clergy.  She is currently on leave from St. Clement’s where she was rector from September 1999-May 2008.  St. Clement’s, the only parish in the diocese to seek Shared Episcopal Ministry (SEM) received pastoral care from Bishop Hockin for a period of one year.</p>
<p>He said Rev John Oakes, incumbent of Holy Trinity in Vancouver also opposes same-sex unions, but has remained in the diocese.  He referred to a letter Rev Oakes wrote claiming he changed his position and regretted recent statements of Essentials.</p>
<p>He referred to other statements of witnesses (by affidavit) and claimed there is diversity within congregations.  The parishes’ “allegations of impossibility need to be tested locally and across Canada”, he said.<br />
end quote</p>
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		<title>By: Ellie M.</title>
		<link>http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2009/06/11/day-10-anic-v-diocese-of-new-westminster-june-10-2009/#comment-152328</link>
		<author>Ellie M.</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Jun 2009 14:45:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2009/06/11/day-10-anic-v-diocese-of-new-westminster-june-10-2009/#comment-152328</guid>
					<description>#11 Noli:

"In political jargon, the term 'useful idiot' was used to describe Soviet sympathizers in western countries and the attitude of the Soviet government towards them. The implication was that though the person in question naïvely thought themselves an ally of the Soviets or other Communists, they were actually held in contempt by them, and being cynically used.

The term is now used more broadly to describe someone who is perceived to be manipulated by a political movement, terrorist group, hostile government, or business, whether or not the group is Communist in nature.'

I would not call the people cited by ACoC's lawyer idiots, Noli, but if one can get past the offensiveness of the term and consider the role of such people in history -- those who by agreement or even by mere acquiescence support despotic regimes -- one might see why Macintosh's examples could fit that category.  Whether they intend it or not, they are definitely being used *by* ACoC, and they are certainly useful *to* ACoC.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#11 Noli:</p>
<p>&#8220;In political jargon, the term &#8216;useful idiot&#8217; was used to describe Soviet sympathizers in western countries and the attitude of the Soviet government towards them. The implication was that though the person in question naïvely thought themselves an ally of the Soviets or other Communists, they were actually held in contempt by them, and being cynically used.</p>
<p>The term is now used more broadly to describe someone who is perceived to be manipulated by a political movement, terrorist group, hostile government, or business, whether or not the group is Communist in nature.&#8217;</p>
<p>I would not call the people cited by ACoC&#8217;s lawyer idiots, Noli, but if one can get past the offensiveness of the term and consider the role of such people in history &#8212; those who by agreement or even by mere acquiescence support despotic regimes &#8212; one might see why Macintosh&#8217;s examples could fit that category.  Whether they intend it or not, they are definitely being used *by* ACoC, and they are certainly useful *to* ACoC.</p>
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		<title>By: Ellie M.</title>
		<link>http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2009/06/11/day-10-anic-v-diocese-of-new-westminster-june-10-2009/#comment-152330</link>
		<author>Ellie M.</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Jun 2009 14:48:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2009/06/11/day-10-anic-v-diocese-of-new-westminster-june-10-2009/#comment-152330</guid>
					<description>And I do not mean people like Gordon Arthur, btw, who is fighting back via his letter -- ie, refusing to be "useful".  I wish there were more like him.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And I do not mean people like Gordon Arthur, btw, who is fighting back via his letter &#8212; ie, refusing to be &#8220;useful&#8221;.  I wish there were more like him.</p>
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		<title>By: Warren</title>
		<link>http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2009/06/11/day-10-anic-v-diocese-of-new-westminster-june-10-2009/#comment-152335</link>
		<author>Warren</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Jun 2009 15:52:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2009/06/11/day-10-anic-v-diocese-of-new-westminster-june-10-2009/#comment-152335</guid>
					<description>Noli (#11), doubtlessly there are those remaining in the ACoC who, in good conscience, believe they are doing so without soiling themselves or validating false teaching; and perhaps some are.  In the eyes of most outsiders, however, I suggest that remaining equals consent.  I also suspect that some of those who remain are inconsistent and view people who retain membership in other organizations in our society, that have drifted far from their founding priniciples, to be aiding, abetting and validating such organizations.  2 Cor 6:14-18.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Noli (#11), doubtlessly there are those remaining in the ACoC who, in good conscience, believe they are doing so without soiling themselves or validating false teaching; and perhaps some are.  In the eyes of most outsiders, however, I suggest that remaining equals consent.  I also suspect that some of those who remain are inconsistent and view people who retain membership in other organizations in our society, that have drifted far from their founding priniciples, to be aiding, abetting and validating such organizations.  2 Cor 6:14-18.</p>
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		<title>By: Gordon Arthur</title>
		<link>http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2009/06/11/day-10-anic-v-diocese-of-new-westminster-june-10-2009/#comment-152341</link>
		<author>Gordon Arthur</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Jun 2009 16:40:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2009/06/11/day-10-anic-v-diocese-of-new-westminster-june-10-2009/#comment-152341</guid>
					<description>Noli [#11], you are, of course, correct, and I was aware of this, but my shorthand was an attempt to express what I see as the main  problem in less than 100 words. Depending on the response, if my letter is printed, I may try a longer supplementary later.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Noli [#11], you are, of course, correct, and I was aware of this, but my shorthand was an attempt to express what I see as the main  problem in less than 100 words. Depending on the response, if my letter is printed, I may try a longer supplementary later.</p>
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		<title>By: Noli Aemulari</title>
		<link>http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2009/06/11/day-10-anic-v-diocese-of-new-westminster-june-10-2009/#comment-152395</link>
		<author>Noli Aemulari</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Jun 2009 22:19:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2009/06/11/day-10-anic-v-diocese-of-new-westminster-june-10-2009/#comment-152395</guid>
					<description>#15 Gordon
Were you also using poetic shorthand when you referred to Michael Ingham "bearing false witness?"Or did he actually perjure himself? If so, where? There's been a lot of material posted here in the last couple of weeks and I seem to have missed the comment where Ingham's alleged perjury was pointed out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#15 Gordon<br />
Were you also using poetic shorthand when you referred to Michael Ingham &#8220;bearing false witness?&#8221;Or did he actually perjure himself? If so, where? There&#8217;s been a lot of material posted here in the last couple of weeks and I seem to have missed the comment where Ingham&#8217;s alleged perjury was pointed out.</p>
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		<title>By: Gordon Arthur</title>
		<link>http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2009/06/11/day-10-anic-v-diocese-of-new-westminster-june-10-2009/#comment-152444</link>
		<author>Gordon Arthur</author>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Jun 2009 06:03:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2009/06/11/day-10-anic-v-diocese-of-new-westminster-june-10-2009/#comment-152444</guid>
					<description>I think "poetic" is something of an overstatement, but no, I wasn't being poetic about false testimony. Have a look at http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2009/06/02/day-5-anic-parishes-v-diocese-of-new-westminster-june-1-09/#comments</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think &#8220;poetic&#8221; is something of an overstatement, but no, I wasn&#8217;t being poetic about false testimony. Have a look at <a href="http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2009/06/02/day-5-anic-parishes-v-diocese-of-new-westminster-june-1-09/#comments" rel="nofollow">http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2009/06/02/day-5-anic-parishes-v-diocese-of-new-westminster-june-1-09/#comments</a></p>
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		<title>By: Cheryl Chang</title>
		<link>http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2009/06/11/day-10-anic-v-diocese-of-new-westminster-june-10-2009/#comment-152453</link>
		<author>Cheryl Chang</author>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Jun 2009 07:57:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2009/06/11/day-10-anic-v-diocese-of-new-westminster-june-10-2009/#comment-152453</guid>
					<description>With all due respect, i would like to point out that some people do make mistakes on the witness stand sometimes.  It may be the result of stress or forgetfulness, but sometimes people are remembering a certain point in time in their answer, and they don't get a chance to re-visit the topic later.  I would not like to see this blog degenerate into calling people liars, particularly about something that is easily proven.  We can be more generous and assume they made a mistake when it is clear it could be proven to the contrary.
Peace.
Cheryl</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>With all due respect, i would like to point out that some people do make mistakes on the witness stand sometimes.  It may be the result of stress or forgetfulness, but sometimes people are remembering a certain point in time in their answer, and they don&#8217;t get a chance to re-visit the topic later.  I would not like to see this blog degenerate into calling people liars, particularly about something that is easily proven.  We can be more generous and assume they made a mistake when it is clear it could be proven to the contrary.<br />
Peace.<br />
Cheryl</p>
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		<title>By: Gordon Arthur</title>
		<link>http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2009/06/11/day-10-anic-v-diocese-of-new-westminster-june-10-2009/#comment-152809</link>
		<author>Gordon Arthur</author>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Jun 2009 06:20:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2009/06/11/day-10-anic-v-diocese-of-new-westminster-june-10-2009/#comment-152809</guid>
					<description>Fair comment, Cheryl, but I chose my words very carefully. I did not accuse Michael Ingham of lying (others did that), I merely accused him of making a false statement in the witness box, without speculating as to his intent.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fair comment, Cheryl, but I chose my words very carefully. I did not accuse Michael Ingham of lying (others did that), I merely accused him of making a false statement in the witness box, without speculating as to his intent.</p>
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		<title>By: Cheryl Chang</title>
		<link>http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2009/06/11/day-10-anic-v-diocese-of-new-westminster-june-10-2009/#comment-153017</link>
		<author>Cheryl Chang</author>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Jun 2009 03:38:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2009/06/11/day-10-anic-v-diocese-of-new-westminster-june-10-2009/#comment-153017</guid>
					<description>#19 Gordon, I didn't say you called Michael Ingham a liar.  However, when I went to the link in your comment, I saw that someone did use the "L" word, so i was speaking in general terms.  In fact, (as you may have seen) I posted the same comment on that blog entry as well, responding directly to that person.
I just want to be as gracious as we can in dealing with the issues.  How we do and say things is just as important, if not more important, than what we say or do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#19 Gordon, I didn&#8217;t say you called Michael Ingham a liar.  However, when I went to the link in your comment, I saw that someone did use the &#8220;L&#8221; word, so i was speaking in general terms.  In fact, (as you may have seen) I posted the same comment on that blog entry as well, responding directly to that person.<br />
I just want to be as gracious as we can in dealing with the issues.  How we do and say things is just as important, if not more important, than what we say or do.</p>
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