Comments on: A Message to the Church in the Ecclesiastical Province of Rupert’s Land http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2008/11/17/a-message-to-the-church-in-the-ecclesiastical-province-of-ruperts-land/ Wed, 08 Feb 2012 14:46:15 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Father Lawrence Winslow http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2008/11/17/a-message-to-the-church-in-the-ecclesiastical-province-of-ruperts-land/comment-page-1/#comment-71272 Father Lawrence Winslow Wed, 19 Nov 2008 02:54:36 +0000 http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2008/11/17/a-message-to-the-church-in-the-ecclesiastical-province-of-rupert%e2%80%99s-land/#comment-71272 Jack, Kate is correct. I made the mistake of seeing the "they" as referencing Ann's response to my original statement. I'll try to be more careful so as not to cause misunderstandings. Of course there are the faithful who are still in ACoC. I referenced this in my first post. And we do need to pray for and support them. Jack, Kate is correct. I made the mistake of seeing the “they” as referencing Ann’s response to my original statement. I’ll try to be more careful so as not to cause misunderstandings. Of course there are the faithful who are still in ACoC. I referenced this in my first post. And we do need to pray for and support them.

]]> By: Kate http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2008/11/17/a-message-to-the-church-in-the-ecclesiastical-province-of-ruperts-land/comment-page-1/#comment-71193 Kate Tue, 18 Nov 2008 21:52:23 +0000 http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2008/11/17/a-message-to-the-church-in-the-ecclesiastical-province-of-rupert%e2%80%99s-land/#comment-71193 Jack, I think "they" meant "leadership", but I take your point. Jack, I think “they” meant “leadership”, but I take your point.

]]> By: Ann V http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2008/11/17/a-message-to-the-church-in-the-ecclesiastical-province-of-ruperts-land/comment-page-1/#comment-71190 Ann V Tue, 18 Nov 2008 21:45:10 +0000 http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2008/11/17/a-message-to-the-church-in-the-ecclesiastical-province-of-rupert%e2%80%99s-land/#comment-71190 Larry I think you are right about them knowing the real issue but choosing to hide behind the smoke screen. Thanks for pointing that out. Larry I think you are right about them knowing the real issue but choosing to hide behind the smoke screen. Thanks for pointing that out.

]]> By: Jack (Vancouver) http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2008/11/17/a-message-to-the-church-in-the-ecclesiastical-province-of-ruperts-land/comment-page-1/#comment-71168 Jack (Vancouver) Tue, 18 Nov 2008 20:12:26 +0000 http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2008/11/17/a-message-to-the-church-in-the-ecclesiastical-province-of-rupert%e2%80%99s-land/#comment-71168 Father Larry (#17), We need to be careful as to who "they" are: There may be some believers amid those who are apostate. Although, if these believers are "walking in the counsel of the ungodly, standing in the way of sinners and sitting in the seat of the scornful" they should not be surprised to find themselves coated in the same mud!! Father Larry (#17),
We need to be careful as to who “they” are: There may be some believers amid those who are apostate. Although, if these believers are “walking in the counsel of the ungodly, standing in the way of sinners and sitting in the seat of the scornful” they should not be surprised to find themselves coated in the same mud!!

]]> By: Father Lawrence Winslow http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2008/11/17/a-message-to-the-church-in-the-ecclesiastical-province-of-ruperts-land/comment-page-1/#comment-71151 Father Lawrence Winslow Tue, 18 Nov 2008 19:10:48 +0000 http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2008/11/17/a-message-to-the-church-in-the-ecclesiastical-province-of-rupert%e2%80%99s-land/#comment-71151 Ann, they realise that the problem is really one of overall theology based upon God's Divinely Inspired Holy Scriptures. However, politically, they need to keep the focus upon the one minor "presenting issue," as J.I. Packer calls it, in order to keep making it look as though their primary concern is "justice" rather than one of totally changing their theology that removes them from the Christian Church while attempting to retain their convoluted sense of power and authority within something they are still trying to call Christian. To quote the "old philosopher" Harry Belafonte, "It was clear as mud - But it cover de ground - And the confusion make me brain go round!" Larry + Ann, they realise that the problem is really one of overall theology based upon God’s Divinely Inspired Holy Scriptures. However, politically, they need to keep the focus upon the one minor “presenting issue,” as J.I. Packer calls it, in order to keep making it look as though their primary concern is “justice” rather than one of totally changing their theology that removes them from the Christian Church while attempting to retain their convoluted sense of power and authority within something they are still trying to call Christian.

To quote the “old philosopher” Harry Belafonte, “It was clear as mud – But it cover de ground – And the confusion make me brain go round!”

Larry +

]]> By: Ann V http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2008/11/17/a-message-to-the-church-in-the-ecclesiastical-province-of-ruperts-land/comment-page-1/#comment-71140 Ann V Tue, 18 Nov 2008 18:41:04 +0000 http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2008/11/17/a-message-to-the-church-in-the-ecclesiastical-province-of-rupert%e2%80%99s-land/#comment-71140 It is my understanding that the pastoral letter was to be read in all parishes in the Rupert's Land Province, so Dean Robin is just posting what went out in the mail to the priests to be made public in their services on either the 16th or 23rd. Just one last comment that I would add here is that the pastoral letter is continuing along the thinking that SSB is the only reason that people and parishes have left. They still don't get that the change in theology is the main issue. It is my understanding that the pastoral letter was to be read in all parishes in the Rupert’s Land Province, so Dean Robin is just posting what went out in the mail to the priests to be made public in their services on either the 16th or 23rd. Just one last comment that I would add here is that the pastoral letter is continuing along the thinking that SSB is the only reason that people and parishes have left. They still don’t get that the change in theology is the main issue.

]]> By: Steve L.- http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2008/11/17/a-message-to-the-church-in-the-ecclesiastical-province-of-ruperts-land/comment-page-1/#comment-71139 Steve L.- Tue, 18 Nov 2008 18:30:48 +0000 http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2008/11/17/a-message-to-the-church-in-the-ecclesiastical-province-of-rupert%e2%80%99s-land/#comment-71139 It appears that Rupert's Land does not have an Internet presence, or at least cleverly hidden from Google. Some <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecclesiastical_provinces_of_the_Anglican_Church_of_Canada" rel="nofollow">Wiki info</a>. Spooky sounds like a star chamber to me. Dean Robin seems to be the only documented source for this little missive. Hand delivered in darkness in a plain brown envelope? I wonder if Jim is steamed at Robin+ for posting it. It appears that Rupert’s Land does not have an Internet presence, or at least cleverly hidden from Google. Some Wiki info. Spooky sounds like a star chamber to me. Dean Robin seems to be the only documented source for this little missive. Hand delivered in darkness in a plain brown envelope? I wonder if Jim is steamed at Robin+ for posting it.

]]> By: Don't Panic http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2008/11/17/a-message-to-the-church-in-the-ecclesiastical-province-of-ruperts-land/comment-page-1/#comment-71138 Don't Panic Tue, 18 Nov 2008 18:24:52 +0000 http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2008/11/17/a-message-to-the-church-in-the-ecclesiastical-province-of-rupert%e2%80%99s-land/#comment-71138 I think the pastoral letter should be heard as Larry and Ann have to laid out. It's just more blah blah blah, bad ANiC! Blah, blah, blah. I think the proof of my scholarly analysis is seen in the Diocese of Rupert's Land's synod resolution noted by Ann in comment #4. Clearly the pastoral letter is meaningless if these same bishop's actual actions undermine the words. What could possibly be the point of holding to moratoria on same-sex blessings in a pastoral letter and passing a resolution to the contrary the same week? Do they think the clergy and people in ANiC and the ACofC are stupid? I think the pastoral letter should be heard as Larry and Ann have to laid out. It’s just more blah blah blah, bad ANiC! Blah, blah, blah.

I think the proof of my scholarly analysis is seen in the Diocese of Rupert’s Land’s synod resolution noted by Ann in comment #4. Clearly the pastoral letter is meaningless if these same bishop’s actual actions undermine the words. What could possibly be the point of holding to moratoria on same-sex blessings in a pastoral letter and passing a resolution to the contrary the same week?

Do they think the clergy and people in ANiC and the ACofC are stupid?

]]> By: JamesW. http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2008/11/17/a-message-to-the-church-in-the-ecclesiastical-province-of-ruperts-land/comment-page-1/#comment-71133 JamesW. Tue, 18 Nov 2008 17:45:21 +0000 http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2008/11/17/a-message-to-the-church-in-the-ecclesiastical-province-of-rupert%e2%80%99s-land/#comment-71133 I was actually struck by the interesting wording: <blockquote>We especially call upon those bishops from outside of our Province who have chosen to interfere in <b>our dioceses</b> to immediately cease their activities. We call on all individuals within <b>our Province</b> who have aligned themselves with outside groups to return to <b>their parish</b> family</blockquote> Note the specific use of "our dioceses", "our Province" and "their parish". If taken literally, this letter condemns only those "foreign interventions" which occur within "Windsor-compliant" dioceses. Abp. Venables is NOT here chastized for taking under his wing parishes in New Westminster, Niagara, Huron, Ottawa, etc. Very significant. Second, it could be argued that, again literally, the next sentence calls only on those who have left ACoC parishes individually to return to those parishes. For example, St. Matthew's Anglican Parish in the Diocese of New Westminster departed <i>en masse</i> for the Southern Cone - for a St. Matthew's parishioner to return to "their parish family" would see them return to a Southern Cone parish. It is hard to argue with my interpretation of the first line, but I do admit that the second line is open to several interpretations (i.e. that the Parish of St. Matthew's did not leave the Diocese of New West, its just that everyone left the "parish family" and are now being called to return). But I do offer up that this statement isn't quite as "liberal" as it might first appear. I was actually struck by the interesting wording:

We especially call upon those bishops from outside of our Province who have chosen to interfere in our dioceses to immediately cease their activities. We call on all individuals within our Province who have aligned themselves with outside groups to return to their parish family

Note the specific use of “our dioceses”, “our Province” and “their parish”. If taken literally, this letter condemns only those “foreign interventions” which occur within “Windsor-compliant” dioceses. Abp. Venables is NOT here chastized for taking under his wing parishes in New Westminster, Niagara, Huron, Ottawa, etc. Very significant. Second, it could be argued that, again literally, the next sentence calls only on those who have left ACoC parishes individually to return to those parishes. For example, St. Matthew’s Anglican Parish in the Diocese of New Westminster departed en masse for the Southern Cone – for a St. Matthew’s parishioner to return to “their parish family” would see them return to a Southern Cone parish.

It is hard to argue with my interpretation of the first line, but I do admit that the second line is open to several interpretations (i.e. that the Parish of St. Matthew’s did not leave the Diocese of New West, its just that everyone left the “parish family” and are now being called to return). But I do offer up that this statement isn’t quite as “liberal” as it might first appear.

]]> By: Jack (Vancouver) http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2008/11/17/a-message-to-the-church-in-the-ecclesiastical-province-of-ruperts-land/comment-page-1/#comment-71117 Jack (Vancouver) Tue, 18 Nov 2008 16:45:00 +0000 http://www.anglicanessentials.ca/wordpress/index.php/2008/11/17/a-message-to-the-church-in-the-ecclesiastical-province-of-rupert%e2%80%99s-land/#comment-71117 When I first read the document, I was annoyed that so many dioceses had signed on to it (a number of them being conservative). It is obvious that the authors' focus was on Cross Border Interventions (clearly the Unforgivable Sin of the Liberal Anglican Church), and no effort was made to call upon bishops who continue to permit same sex blessings (this being just a minor disagreement). However, on reading it a second time, like Ellie (#7) I noticed the slimy Weasel Wording which says "authorizing rites" which is different from the wording that came out of Lambeth. Finally I will note that this document appears to have come from only one source, DeanRobin, and reading his Sunday Homily, I can now understand where Weasel Wording come from: He notes that the BAS describes the Bishops responsibility being "to guard the faith, unity and discipline of the church" which being translated from Weasel into English is "the faith of the church, being determined by the latest vote in Synod is to be maintained by forced unity and severe discipline". Quite different from the BCP "to banish and drive away all erroneous and stange doctrine contrary to God's Word". When I first read the document, I was annoyed that so many dioceses had signed on to it (a number of them being conservative). It is obvious that the authors’ focus was on Cross Border Interventions (clearly the Unforgivable Sin of the Liberal Anglican Church), and no effort was made to call upon bishops who continue to permit same sex blessings (this being just a minor disagreement).
However, on reading it a second time, like Ellie (#7) I noticed the slimy Weasel Wording which says “authorizing rites” which is different from the wording that came out of Lambeth.
Finally I will note that this document appears to have come from only one source, DeanRobin, and reading his Sunday Homily, I can now understand where Weasel Wording come from: He notes that the BAS describes the Bishops responsibility being “to guard the faith, unity and discipline of the church” which being translated from Weasel into English is “the faith of the church, being determined by the latest vote in Synod is to be maintained by forced unity and severe discipline”. Quite different from the BCP “to banish and drive away all erroneous and stange doctrine contrary to God’s Word”.

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