did admit that, occasionally parishioners have been locked out of their churches in the ACoC and that it is wrong. Watch it on the Michael Coren show tonight at 8:00 pm on CTS. I’ll probably have a loop of that bit playing on St. Hilda’s web site.
When pressed, Dean Peter Wall
Jul 31st, 2008 by David
31 Responses to “When pressed, Dean Peter Wall”
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Initial impressions:
Ray David was solid and Paula was sincere and believable.
Coren cut through Wall’s fog a couple of times and Corfield was her usually chippy self masquerading as an “inclusivist”.
The big problem for us is that the general public is scripturally illiterate, and even the average Anglican in the pew has only a passing familiarity with our foundational doctrines.
The bottom line is that it’s unlikely that anyone’s opinion changed.
Peace,
Jim
As one who feels called to stay within the Canadian Anglican Church and the Diocese of Niagara, it saddens me deeply to see how the conservative voice has been weakened within the ACoC by the departure of some parishioners to ANIC. Albeit these parishioners have departed to become Anglicans in another ‘Province’ but the fact is they have gone where new conservative voices are not really required. We needed them!
It has become glaringly obvious to those of us who stayed within ACoC that we are being challenged to stand and serve as never before but most importantly to grow in our faith through prayer and Bible study and community.
2 Diane,
but the fact is they have gone where new conservative voices are not really required. We needed them!
That all depends on what you believe the mission of the church to be. As William Temple once put it, the church is the only society on earth that exists for the benefit of non-members. In other words, we are supposed to be presenting the gospel to those outside the church. I just can’t see that God would be calling us to be constantly defending the gospel to the organisation that is ostensibly there to spread it, but instead is bent on its destruction.
If the whole thing ends up on the web anywhere, please let us know.
4 Kate,
We should be getting a DVD at some point and I’ll encode it as a flash video. All I have to do then is find somewhere with enough space to host it
Diane
It was with a lot of sadness and prayer that our parish voted (unanimously) to leave the ACoC – it was not done lightly. We had tried to work from within and had been ignored and put down for 10 years. At least this got their attention. For an “inclusive” communion – the diocese does not include voices that disagree with their stance. Added to that is the fact that we were still paying large amounts of money to a diocese that was using it to promote something we could not agree with. People had started to leave – not because of our “conservative” theology but because they felt our staying and paying our diocesan share showed support for their heresy. I bless you for staying and trying to be a voice and I pray that you will be heard. Sadly, that was not our experience.
Bless you.
Diane (#2), I hope you will humour me by attempting to answer a couple of questions. I apologize if my tone seems harsh, but there are some things I just don’t get. When I was introduced to Anglicanism three years ago (in a parish that is now part of the ANiC), and began to appreciate what was happening in the ACoC, I started asking how people who claimed to hold to orthodox biblical beliefs, could in parishes that had strayed far from true Christianity. The cynic in me concluded that it was more about tradition, family ties, aesthetics, etc., than to be a strong witness in an environment where persecution would be the likely result. Three years later, this is still how I see it. In what way do you believe you are “called” to stay, and what would have to happen before you would feel compelled to leave a parish and/or diocese that grossly distorted God’s Word? What about parents of young children – do they not have a responsibility before God to ensure their children are exposed to truth and not a false gospel? As I said at the start, I just don’t get it.
Warren (#7) I don’t quite understand what you mean when you say, “I was introduced to Anglicanism three years ago.” Do you mean you became a Christian in an Anglican Church?
I have never attended an Anglican parish church where the Gospel was not proclaimed or not permitted to be proclaimed. If at any point this were not so, I would know that it was time to leave. As long as we are not restricted from evangelizing by proclaiming the Gospel both inside the church and in the community at large, I will pray that I can be used as a follower of Jesus Christ and also, an Anglican in an Ontario diocese at that!
I think somewhere in scripture it says that we are to let our light shine where we are. All we are instructed to do is to witness to the Gospel – - the Holy Spirit does the work! I know many people who are leading wholesome Christ-centered lives who attend what some may refer to as mainline or liberal churches, including the Roman Catholic Church.
I would like to find the perfect church but since none of us is perfect where are we going to find perfection?
How many Anglican churches have you been in lately, Dianne? Do you read The Anglican Journal? Did you read my post about talking to animals in an Anglican church? These things aren’t one off, uncommon things, they are everywhere. An Anglican church that is permitted to preach the unvarnished, unrevised Gospel is rare indeed.
Diane (#8), I apologize for not being more clear. I was raised in a Christian home and attended a Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada church in my childhood and youth. I “gave my heart to the Lord” as a young child, and have attended a variety of evangelical churches for all of my adult life. My first exposure to Anglicanism goes back only three years (the story of how I ended up in an Anglican church is too long to tell here) and was a very positive experience in my spiritual formation. Since then, I have learned enough about Canadian Anglicanism to know that, when someone from an ACoC parish uses the word “gospel”, it is possible that they mean something quite different than the Biblical meaning of the word. How would you define the gospel and how would you witness to the gospel to an unbeliever? What does “leading wholesome Christ-centered lives” mean to you?
Hi Kate: (re #9) I understand that you are looking at things that are upsetting to you in the ACoC. I come at this from an entirely different space – - I have always been able to find some things that were disturbing in any denomination – - and have experienced it. However, for possibly the past 35 years I have been an Anglican who looks for the positive in my ACoC and more often than not I can find a place where I can worship, pray, hear the words of Jesus Christ read and all the other passages of scripture read and it suits my need for a time of peace and quiet reflection. I have always loved the liturgy with its emphasis on scripture. I love the written prayers as they so often say so well all that I want to say. I like being able to invite people to come to my church to hear about Jesus Christ and I truly believe that some of the people who come will never be comfortable in any other church. I believe that my parish, St. George’s Lowville, still is called to continue to reach out to the hundreds of people who are even now moving to the Milton area.
Hi Warren: It would be so good to actually speak to you directly rather than to even attempt to answer your questions through this blog. It seems that the more I write, the more disconnected we become. First, let me say that I do love the traditions, the history and the physical beauty that I see in our churches. I love the organization of an episcopal church where lots of the decisions are made at a level other than at the parish level – - no voting a preacher out!! I am an Anglican because 35 years ago we found a Christ-centered Anglican church and community, and two others since then, that have sustained us and helped us to raise our family in such a way that we assured that our grandchildren will also know the value of Christian life and community. (It took a church family to help us raise our kids!)
Warren, you know perfectly well what I mean by the Gospel. I mean that I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. (It’s all there in the Nicene Creed.) I believe that He was born of a virgin, lived on earth and died for our sins and rose again so that we might have eternal life. With His help, I attempt to walk everyday in the light of the lessons that he taught us. I live my life based on His commandments. I trust that the Holy Spirit will continue to nudge me along as I attempt to live out my faith in a Christ-centered way. You ask “What does”leading wholesome Christ-centered lives” mean” and I hope this answers the question for you – - at least from my personal perspective. I don’t actually have a check list that I follow or one set out by others. If I am not walking in “the Way” – - I’ll know it and others will too.
At present I am part of a team who has the privilege of taking Alpha into a prison. This would seem to answer your question concerning how I would witness to the gospel. I know that there are thousands/millions of Christians who cannot point to a direct Alpha outreach in their lives and I am one of the lucky ones who can do so at the present time. The real answer to this question therefore, I believe, is that I must live my life every day as a witness to others. “Let the Beauty of Jesus be Seen in Me,” is my constant prayer. Aren’t the old (and sometimes the new ones too) hymns and songs wonderful! So many times their authors express just perfectly what I would want to say. At the moment I hear this one, “Let me Burn Out for Thee Dear Lord … use me and all I have Dear Lord and get me so close to Thee that I’ll hear the throb of the great Heart of God and then I’ll burn out for Thee.”
Diane — being a member of St George’s ACoC you have witnessed first hand the treatment of the diocese toward the 3 Niagara churches. Having seen the heavy handedness, the court actions, the illegal bank account seizings, the firing of priests without due process as laid out in the canons, the lies told in the media – I could go on and on, how can this not speak to your trust in this diocese. In the interview with Michael Coren, Peter and Lynne both said that the tenets of our faith are open to interpretation and the Anglican church prides itself on the fact that anything goes. (Except of course orthodoxy). Then the throw away comment from Lynne that we are not sinners but are complete and whole said it all. If we are not sinners then we do not need a Saviour and therefore the cross and resurrection really are disposable. I wish I were that self assured. Unfortunately I know that I am a sinner and what Jesus did for me was the most significant, meaningful and loving thing that has ever been done.
Diane (#11), thank you for your gracious response. I agree that the Nicene Creed is a wonderful encapsulation of the gospel. Unfortunately, I can’t just assume that, when someone in the ACoC mentions the gospel, they are actually referring to the proclamation of good news that Jesus died for our sins and was raised again, and that He is the only way to the Father. Nor do I suppose that they really understand sin and the wrath of a righteous and holy God towards it. The Nicene Creed may still be recited (at least occasionally) in most parishes, but how many who mouth the words actually understand and believe it, or live their lives according to it? Also, how often is it preached without compromise?
You worship in a Diocese where the leaders have made it clear that the ancient creeds are no longer a sufficient summary of God’s truth and that, in our modern enlightenment and understanding, the Bible must be understood in a “new” light. Perhaps your priest is orthodox and conservative but, if he took a strong stand for truth against his Bishop and others in senior ecclesiastical leadership within the Diocese, how long would he last before being ceremoniously deposed (thanks to “an episcopal church where lots of the decisions are made at a level other than at the parish level”)?
I have no desire to be part of a denomination that actively rebuffs all calls to return to the truth of God’s Word. A church that not only turns a blind eye towards sin, but seeks to actively promote it. The ACoC has been on the path of apostasy for decades and my personal perspective (for which I have no evidence) is that the pews have long been occupied mostly by nominal Christians who know little about the truths of the Christian faith (and who don’t have much interest in learning), and the pulpits have been filled by priests educated at liberal seminaries where doubt was much more dominant than belief. Were this not the case, I don’t believe that the ACoC would be where it is today.
When you witness to an unbeliever and are asked why you believe something different that what, according to all reports, your church stands for, how do you answer? If you know that the only ACoC parishes available to that person do not preach the gospel, what would you tell them? The ACoC is already deeply compromised and very weak, and, sadly, without the stand up of the ANiC parishes, I believe that the voice of orthodox Anglican believers would have been further weakened rather than the ACoC strengthened. It is absolutely not my place to tell you where God would have you, but I don’t think sadness is the right emotion to feel towards those who are willing to take a stand for the gospel – even if it means the loss of property. Even if you choose not to join them, I think true believers, of any denomination, should rejoice with those who are willing to face hardship and persecution in standing for the gospel.
Paula: Have you ever sat down with one of us (a Federation person) and heard about what we have felt and seen and experienced? This whole thing is so painful! For the most part, and I’m not doing very well obviously, we have tried to remain quiet so as to not cause any more anger or hurt. We feel victimized too. We did not vote to leave the ACoC but have also been locked out of our church and at present are only allowed to be in our church 10 hours per week.
I agreed wholeheartedly with Jim Muirhead’s comments concerning you and Ray David. I sensed that you and Ray David were sincere and extremely at ease and well-spoken. I also realized that you were being interviewed by one who could possibly be considered to be a ‘ friend’. Logistically, and I’m being petty, Ray David was given the prime seat – - facing Michael directly and you were give the seat at the right hand. Small potatoes and knitpicking, I know, but the camera almost always only gave a side-view of Peter Wall with Lynn tucked in behind him. I know that this does not make any difference to content but still I believe that they are interesting observations. Peter Wall was only asked one meaningful question by Michael. In my view, the conversation required much more time and obviously under pressure of the moment, I believe that some things needed to be revisited. I know that I would have needed a second chance if I had been a guest on that panel and not used to this kind of back and forth discussion that was required.
It was obvious that Ray David was very comfortable with the subject matter and with any of the questions that would be put forward by Michael Coren. These are not excuses but they are facts. Ever since Ray David was ordained in ACoC about three years ago, I have been excited about the many talents that he brings to ministry. These gifts were very evident last Thursday night.
Warren, it depends on what you are looking for in a church. I want to stay in the ACoC and continue to worship in the churches that I know are presenting the gospel in a way I find inviting. There are still good solid Christian bishops and priests in the ACoC and I will stay to support them. You have chosen to do otherwise and I must respect you for your decision. I trust that everything that happens in the ANIC will be God-led. (I need to stop writing on this blog. I’m positive that anything I have said here has not helped to win people to life in Christ!!)
Diane, you aren’t locked out. You are welcome to return any time you want to. The vast majority of the parishoners at St. George’s voted to join ANiC. If I was in your postition, I would either respect the majority and stay with them, or would move on to another ACoC church. Your insistance on staying with the pseudo St.George’s that the diocese of Niagara has set up leads me to suspect your motives.
Diane – as I put on an earlier comment – we had tried to work from within but were ignored. I have spoken to many in the Federation and I am thankful for all of you but I honestly believe the time for trying to work with the ACoC has passed – we are on totally different paths. I do agree that the Coren discussion could have gone for days, but even if it had I do not believe there would have been agreement. We believe what we believe and they feel the same. Further to Kate’s blog – no one has been locked out of ANiC churches but ANiC churches were sent a letter from the diocese lawyer to say that our members were not welcome at any of their services.
Diane, those who can, stay (John Stott). You are not alone in your witness. God can work through your faithfulness to Him (not the institution). Each has to make their own prayerful decision. This is a Federation blog too so the Network needs to respect that.
I don’t know of any Federation leader who would support attendance at the pseudo-parishes that the diocese of Niagara has set up.
I needed to hear from you Siena! Thank you! History has shown that in these church schisms we all are tempted to only accept one side (ours) as truth and yes, history shows that we also tend to exaggerate too.
So here I go again with my story – - having lived the St. George’s experience for about five or six or more years as we took a strong stand for the work of Anglican Essentials and the Montreal Declaration and then began to talk of joining Network and finally egan to talk about leaving ACoC. Sometimes I was tempted to just go with the ANIC (so many of my friends were deciding to do this). Through it all though, I still believed that if I voted to leave the ACoC it would mean that the Courts would never allow us to take ownership of the church properties/trust held for the Diocese. And again, Kate doubts my motives and obviously does not care to believe me when I say that I feel called to stay with the ACoC and to remain a faithful follower of Jesus Christ in St. George’s Lowville – - the one that was set up 150 years ago (pseudo?). I’m not perfect – - far from it – - but I have no sense that the commitment shown by the ANIC parishioners at Crossroads is fake or pseudo – - they are attempting to be faithful too. I pray for them and their ministry and I believe that they are also praying for those of us who have chosen a different path.
Again, I know that Paula and the others from her parish are suffering and that they love St. Hilda’s (and miss their regular church-life). I can only imagine how difficult it must be for those who have had a very effective ministry in the community. (I take no joy whatsoever in all the difficulties that others are facing. How could I? They are God’s children!)
Finally, Pauline, no matter how the diocesan lawyer’s letter was written or interpreted, I was devastated to think that anyone would believe for a moment that anyone would not be welcome to worship with us. It seems that there were some fears that unfortunate incidents might occur in our parking lots if persons other than those who had come to worship were to arrive in the parking lots at the same time. I know without a shadow of doubt that the intent of the letter was not to discourage anyone from coming inside to worship. Yes, Kate, I know that I am also welcome to worship with ANIC parishioners and maybe someday we will be able to worship together and support each other in ministry.
My point, Diane, is that by continuing to worship at the rival congregation that the diocese has set up, you lend legitimacy to their actions. Why would you want to do that, when there are so many other places you could chose to worship? Why did you say you were “locked out” when you knew that you are welcome there anytime you want? Remember, all of two people from St. George’s voted against joining ANiC. Two people do not a congregation make.
How can you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the intent of the letter was not to make ANiC folk unwelcome? The letter was written by someone in the Diocesan office, do you know this person’s heart?
I’m sure I sound frustrated – because I am, very. I don’t think it is legetimate for thirty or forty people (or however many people you have of a Sunday) to pop out of the woodwork and say that they are disenfranchised St. George’s people when only two people voted against the move to ANiC. That’s why I refer to the rival congregation as pseudo St. George’s; because its creation was an essentially political act. Something is just not right there, and by being a part of it you lend it legitimacy. I can’t imagine that you would find many Federation leaders who would agree with your course of action.
[19]
Diane
I have many orthodox friends who are still in the ACoC working to fulfil the Gospel of our Lord. In virtually every case, they are imbedded in parishes that respect/support their views.
However, the circumstances in the diocese created clubs at St. George’s and St. Hilda’s have nothing in common with my faithful friends. You have made a choice to support the corrupt agenda of an apostate diocese and have rejected your parish community.
I pray that you will reconsider the damage that you are doing.
Peace.
Jim
Diane (#19),
Again, I know that Paula and the others from her parish are suffering and that they love St. Hilda’s
Yes, we love St. Hilda’s, but it’s not the building we love, it’s each other. The fight for the building will continue, largely because, at this point, it’s about more than just our parish. What is important to me is our stand for the gospel and the fact that we are a close family who wish to stay together. That, not the building, is what I and the other parishioners primarily care about. If I honestly thought the diocese were going to use the building for Christian ministry, I would say – let them have it. As it is, since the last court ruling the Sunday service has consisted of Brian Ruttan, his wife and the lady who sets up the altar. If the diocese wins the final court battle, it will, after what it considers a decent interval, close the church and sell the building.
I think you are being naïve if you believe the diocese is really interested in continuing ministry in any of the 3 Niagara church buildings: they routinely close churches with the numbers they are getting at St. George’s.
A question you have not really answered: I think I can understand the impulse to stay with the ACoC, but why is it so important to you to attend a service in St. George’s building?
David #19 I’ll be honest as I have tried to be throughout this whole discourse – - I love the building (I know that there are ANIC parishioners who love it too). I have not only attended St. George’s for twenty-five years but like many others, my husband and I have participated fully in all kinds of initiatives, e.g. raising funds for a new Parish Hall, choir membership, served as members of Parish Council and also in a Corporation executive position as Warden, Rectory Committee, Parking Lot Committee, ACW, Worship Committee, etc. We have raised our children in this church. It is our home! I’m too old to start all over in another church – - I don’t feel that I have the ability to dig in and really contribute in a new setting at least not in the way that I was able to do at one time. Also, I am worshiping with others who have always thought of St. George’s as their church – - they have never belonged to any other church. A few are in their mid to late 80′s and their grandparents went to St. George’s. I would imagine that this all sounds as if the 40 or 50 of us still wanting to worship there are selfish.
I believe that some ANIC people (I’m not sure how many but a noticeable number) if asked, would say that they are not attached to anything that reminds them of the ACoC anglicanism – - they came to St. George’s in recent years because it was offering a contemporary/charismatic service in the Parish Hall and they really enjoyed that kind of service.
Of course, there are ANIC parishioners who will have had the same experience – - they have worshiped at St. George’s Lowville all of their lives.
But you asked and I expect that you will judge me harshly – - maybe …
I ask again, where did the 40 or 50 of you come from? If they all love St.George’s so much, why didn’t they attend the vote?
[23]
Diane
Please re-read your post. You are telling us that your decision was based on loving “the building” and an unwillingness to “dig in and really contribute in a new setting”.
Diane, I have more confidence in your ability to contribute than you have. Hold your head up and look to the light. Trust in God and not Mammon.
Peace,
Jim
Diane (#23), I appreciate your honesty and willingness to put a human face on your comments. It certainly helps contribute to understanding in the “blogosphere”.
Thanks to a military career with frequent moves, my wife and I are now in our 13th church that we consider our “home church”. We no longer claim any denominational loyalty, and look beyond denominational labels when looking for a new church. I feel mostly at home in many churches/denominations and not completely at home in any of them. Frequent church moves has its negative points, but it is also very freeing to not feel obligated to attend somewhere because of history or family ties. If you are serious about your Christianity, it also forces you to quickly look for opportunities for service; which is not a bad thing.
A couple that we have gotten to know and come to greatly appreciate in our current church (where we’ve been attending for the past year) are cradle Anglicans who, a few years ago, finally reached the point where they saw no option but to leave the ACoC if they were to remain faithful to their core beliefs. This was when they were in their mid-70s. Their record of service is similar to yours and I know that the decision was a difficult and painful one (and I know they still miss the Anglican form of worship). That said, they have been a wonderful addition to our church and are having an extremely positive influence in a number of areas (including being very involved with the Alpha program). If it is God’s will, I don’t believe that someone is ever too old to start all over again.
Kate #24 – - I believed that the vote was about leaving not staying. Quite a few people just didn’t realize that this was going to happen – - they had never attended any of the Parish Council or Vestry meetings and when they did hear about it, they thought that some of the people at St. George’s were going to leave the church but they were not closely connected to the issues surrounding this.
I was very connected to Anglican Essentials and was disappointed when it was split into Network and Federation but could see some of the reasoning behind it even though I felt that it weakened the work of Essentials.
A few of us could not get into the parking lot on the day of the vote. The icy conditions had made it necessary to block off the lower entrance way and the upper one was blocked by so many cars just sliding into the lot. I now realize that I should have parked down the road in a service station lot and walked up to the church. Instead, I called the church and went back home. It would not have mattered though, Kate. The majority had decided to vote to leave the ACoC and my vote to stay would have made it four against how many??
I understand that the Archdeacon who had been assigned to attend our church that day actually parked in the service station parking lot and made his way up to St. George’s so that he could bring a message from the Bishop. Unlike the decision made at St. Hilda’s where I believe they did receive the Archdeacon, the Archdeacon who came to St. George’s was escorted from the building by the Curate and not given an opportunity to address the parishioners sitting there ready to start a Vestry meeting.
I have noted that you have from time to time asked why some of us didn’t vote. It makes perfect sense to me to say that we did not need to vote. The vote was called to find out how many parishioners wanted to leave and we were staying.
If I have read correctly, you have not held a vote to leave your own parish church yet. I understand that from the time of the vote on that Sunday in February until the time of the first Court hearing, the ANIC parishioners secured the church 24 hours a day and refused to hand over keys to diocesan representatives. I wonder if the pharmaceutical companies have noted an increase in sales of medication for hypertension lately?
You read incorrectly. My parish was the second one to move over to ANiC. I’m from St. Alban’s, in Ottawa.
I’m sorry, but I simply don’t believe that “quite a few of you” didn’t know “it was going to happen”. I think that the other St. George’s people who comment here could confirm that someone who had been attending regularly would have known; that the parish leadership would have made sure of this.
“A few of us” or “four” does not make 40 or 50. So, who are the other 45 or 55? Who are these people who did not need to vote? People who left St. George’s many years ago, maybe, and thus didn’t qualify to vote? That’s why I think that you are participating in a political exercise, whether your motives are political or not. Mark my words, when the court case is over, the diocese of Niagara will move in and sell the building. They won’t keep it open for 40 people, and you will have been used. Don’t fall for it.
None of my later comments really matter and they weren’t helpful. They could have and quite possibly should have been left unsaid. What Warren had to contribute is very worthwhile and I appreciate it. I know that we are all called to serve in one way or another until we are called home. It’s late now and perhaps midnight hour tiredness has made me feel that I cannot possibly do anything more anywhere. Surely this feeling will pass after some hours of sleep!
Diane (#23)
But you asked and I expect that you will judge me harshly – - maybe …
Thanks for the answer. No, I don’t judge you at all, let alone harshly.
For Diane:- I know this analogy is not totally applicable but it does have a mesaure of truth. If you purchased a vehicle from a dealer you have known for years and that dealer proved to be knowlignly dishonest and literally ripped you off, would you persist in dealing with that dealer? The tragidy is that the leadership in the ACoC has become apostate and the claimed orthodox bishops choose to remain silent. We can rejoice in the fact that honourable men like Bishop Don Harvey and Bishop Malcolm Harding have come forward in an attempt to bring the ACoC back to its basic teachings. Many will speak of the majority votes at various synods but I ask simply when did God’s word become subject to any majprity vote? If bishops were doing their job they would NEVER allow any motion that is in direct contradiction to the authority of Scripture to appear on the floor of synod or any other body.