We have free will because God wanted lovers (agape), not slaves. He gave us rules for our own good – He knows what is best for us, we don’t, necessarily. Jesus preached against rules that men had added to God’s rules, but he never told us to cease following God’s rules. We don’t have the right to coerce other people – to refuse to allow people to live by their own choices. We do have the right and the duty to stand up for the Gospel, though, over and against leaders who insist on twisting it out of shape to further their own agendas.

John K wrote: “In short, we who call ourselves ‘orthodox Christians’ should not force our beliefs on others, but I truly believe we have the right, indeed the obligation before God, to separate ourselves from those who would name the name of Christ yet flagrantly abuse his clear teachings and his name.
We have the right to say, “We are a group of people who call ourselves Christians and are gathered into a thing we call a church. Here is what we believe. If you agree with us and want to join us, you are welcome. But if you don’t, well, just go somewhere else and let us be faithful to what we believe is true.”

I totally agree with you. we are indeed allowed to make your own choices and live by them. What you (we) do not have a right to do is to force these choices on other people or to refuse other people to live by their own choices. (I have mentioned this idea before) and it seems to me that religious institutions forget this much too often. I would also point out that this would probably go against Jesus’ instruction to go and spread the word and try to convert people….
A few more questions/thoughts:

If we start from the oft repeated precept that god has created man with free-will, why would then god create s set of rules to curtails that free-will, and why would god create something free and then ask them to obey him. what is the point of it really? Wouldn’t be easier for him not bother? It doesn’t really seem to make much sense.

If on the other hand, you look at the Bible and its comments as a text written by men to use as tool to control masses, then it all seem to make sense. These rules now have a purpose which they do otherwise seem to have.

Humanity also seems to have this need to have something to look up to (whether it is a god, a celebrity, money or whatever else). This is, I believe an integral part of what makes us human and what helps us go beyond ourselves and create things. Codifying this urge into a religion is a neat trick for any oligarchy.

Finally there is the fear of death. And again, it makes to provide the masses with hope.

I am probably sounding very cynical but then again I suppose I am. Having seen what religion can make humans do and how it’s been used over the centuries for political purposes, can help but being skeptical.

Nicholas, I pray that the Lord shower you with his grace, open you up to his will for you, and make you whole.
Peace

Nicolas said,

…my biggest problem with religion is that it tries to impose it’s views and ways on other people. I don’t try to force anyone to live their lives the way I live mine, why should other people thry and force their ways on me? I am also ready to fight for other people’s right to do as they please (again as long as noone gets hurt) but sadly other people don’t seem to be ready to pay the courtesy back.

Hi Nicolas,
I have stayed away from this thread because I have found that such discussions between, shall I say, ‘believers and non-believers,’ not to insult you personally, but merely for the most expedient way of putting it, are often fruitless, each side holding firm to their own preconceptions and discounting, a priori those of the other.
However, I sense that you are a thinking person willing to engage in reasonable and rational discussion.
You are absolutely correct about religions or religious followers too often forcing, or trying to force, their beliefs on others. That should not be the case.
I am thinking of the Biblical story of Jesus and the rich young ruler. the man wanted eternal life. Jesus told him what he should do. Apparently the price was too high for him, because he turned and sadly went away. But Jesus did not pursue him. Jesus informed him of the conditions, but did not force him. He let him go.
But the key is that to be a true follower of Jesus, and to inherit eternal life through him, there are requirements. We must accept his commandments, not insist on doing it on our own. And not, may I say, bending and twisting his commandments to adapt them to our own personal desires. Every one of us has the choice to do it his way or not. But if we choose not, then we must be prepared to face whatever consequences ensue.
Jesus also said, “If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.” (Luke 9:23)
Now, leaving aside what it means exactly to take up one’s cross, I think the key phrase here is, “deny himself.” I don’t think that means we must all live ascetically, but that where there are certain of our wants, desires, passions or activities that are in conflict with Biblical teachings, we have choices to make. We can either indulge in those conflicting behaviours or we can choose not to gratify them and live our lives according to God’s desire for us. We cannot do both. One plus one cannot equal both two and three.
In short, we who call ourselves ‘orthodox Christians’ should not force our beliefs on others, but I truly believe we have the right, indeed the obligation before God, to separate ourselves from those who would name the name of Christ yet flagrantly abuse his clear teachings and his name.
We have the right to say, “We are a group of people who call ourselves Christians and are gathered into a thing we call a church. Here is what we believe. If you agree with us and want to join us, you are welcome. But if you don’t, well, just go somewhere else and let us be faithful to what we believe is true.

Reading the various responses I have received on this threads, the words humility and truth have come up a few times. I have also been reminded that people should basically go back to the roots (ie the scriptures). My problem here is how much Churches, however much they claim to be the emanation of god’s will, are actually very much human and even political organisations trying to push their agenda and protect their influence for the sake of it. Their isn’t one church I think that does actually follows the Bible by the letter. All have and will pick and mix.

I have been told that I should try and attend a Church “where the truth is taught”. As far as I know, none will be claiming that their vision is not the truth. Humility also seems often to have very little to do with religion: people tell others that they have the truth, that they know better, that their ways are best.

As I said earlier however, my biggest problem with religion is that it tries to impose it’s views and ways on other people. I don’t try to force anyone to live their lives the way I live mine, why should other people thry and force their ways on me? I am also ready to fight for other people’s right to do as they please (again as long as noone gets hurt) but sadly other people don’t seem to be ready to pay the courtesy back. Which turns religions into divisive forces rather than forces of harmony. A lot of the violence that has happened in the last 2000 years has had religion as an excuse.

I am probably rambling and not making much sense. I should probably stop.

If you wish not to be a Christian so be it, but should you chose to be a Christian that is a commitment that does not allow you to pick and choose and import secular values clearly in conflict with Scripture.
OT and NT are continuous teachings and probably should have never been segregated such as they have. The culmination of the prophets is Jesus Christ. We prepare as best we can and wait for his return.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

There are nominal and Authentic Christians. If I think I will not be able to stand true to my ordination vows I won’t take them.

Is it smart to forget God’s Wrath? – Abp Peter Jensen
By Archbishop of Sydney, Peter Jensen for The Anglican Planet (h/t Anglican Mainstream)

ONE OF THE GRAVEST weaknesses of contemporary Christianity is the little attention paid to the wrath of God. We have become sentimental and have so stressed the love of God as to become unwilling to talk about his wrath.

In part this is because the culture will not let us do so. There is an outcry whenever the clear teaching of the Bible is given in public. Church members have to live in this world. They do not want their minister to talk about unpopular or divisive subjects. The minister is aware of this and he is tempted to soft-peddle on matters which are scriptural. Among them is the subject of God’s wrath.

There is an even deeper reason. Many false teachings (or lack of true teaching) begin with an inadequate idea of human sin. In the twentieth century, there were significant advances made in psychology. We learned more clearly than ever before the effect of the brain on human behaviour, the shaping we experience through our parents, and the sort of things which motivate and explain the way we operate. Much of this has been for the real betterment of people.

On the other hand, too much credit was given to these new ways of looking at human beings as though they fully explained us. What was missing was an adequate account of human evil.

God’s wrath is his holy response to our sin. It is a righteous anger at unrighteous behaviour, indeed at unrighteous beings. It is completely just. Indeed it is an expression of love, since it takes us with utmost seriousness and refuses to accede that we are like insects, not responsible for our actions. The wrath of God is one of the foundations of the whole moral and spiritual order. The Bible portrays us as living at a time when we experience a foretaste of the wrath of God.

We do not like to think of God’s wrath, precisely because we properly fear that we ourselves may be the objects of his wrath. In fact that is the very point; ‘all we like sheep have gone astray’ (Isaiah 53). This biblical teaching does not flatter the human race. Worse, it constitutes a warning to us far worse than the warnings we have received about global warming and similar catastrophes. Indeed such catastrophes may constitute something of the wrath of God because they may be the result of our abuse of the world which he has given us to care for.

It is hardly surprising that preachers do not care to delineate the biblical teaching about sin and wrath: they do not make congregations feel good about themselves. The danger is that we will have people in our churches whose ‘itching ears’ will only hope to hear what they want to hear: that all is well and the human race is not too bad after all. But we cannot even begin to understand the gospel about Jesus if we do not see that he came to save us from the wrath of God. How else can we understand the cross of Christ?

Not surprisingly the contemporary church uses three strategies to soften the offence caused by the cross. The first is to cloud the whole thing with mystery. We are permitted to say that Jesus died for us but we are not permitted to say what this means and how it relates to sin and wrath and judgement. Second is to offer some other explanation for the cross than what the Bible itself says. We are told that the cross occurred solely to demonstrate the solidarity of God with us in our suffering. Third, to ignore the cross altogether and find the centre of Jesus’ mission in the Incarnation or even worse in his present friendship with us, sung about in endless trivial songs.

The wrath of God is as real as your sin. The only thing which can satisfy the wrath of God is a satisfaction paid for your sin provided by God himself. Jesus has done this by dying for you on the cross, saving you ‘from the wrath to come.’ Whether we like it or not, that is the heart of the gospel. Turn the wrath of God into something else, or ignore it, and you will not have Christianity, but some other religious look-alike. That is our choice

Comment:
In North America, we suffer from an aberrant priesthood and set of bishops who have gone so fare as to remove unsettling scripture from the Lectionary. The scandalous controversy in the benighted Episcopal and Anglican Church in Canada is as a direct result of a hierarchy committed to ignoring or worse, amending, scripture. I expect the Wrath of God to be visited upon the authors of the current catastrophy, following that with a period of painfull cleansing of the misguided laity. I pray daily for this, and am not ashamed to say so.
Posted by teddymak on 04/23 at 08:23 PM