One, a letter posted by the Diocese of New West, feel free to comment away.
The other on Garth Bulmer, he of the ‘integrity and sanctity’ motion. He doesn’t think too kindly of ANiC, no surprises there. Again, feel free to comment…..
Couple of articles FYI
Mar 28th, 2008 by Peter
47 Responses to “Couple of articles FYI”
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The only reason that a disciplinary action can be brought against a gay person is if he or she is in a gay relationship, he says.
The reality on the ground is, that a priest of the diocese of Ottawa is not allowed to exercise sacramental discipline against someone in a same sex relationship.
It is sad that the Diocese of New West feels the need to pit parishioners against each other.
However, as a former member of St Catherine’s in North Vancouver and a current member of St John’s Shaughnessy, I freely give my previous contributions to St Catherine’s for their ongoing use despite the fact that the Anglican Church of Canada is walking away from the gospel into which I was baptised. I hope that St. Catherine’s will take the time to look at ALL the issues, not just the obvious one of same sex blessing.
With regard to the New West letter: A synod majority, no matter how large, cannot trump Sacred Scripture.
As regards the Bulmer interview: I have a problem with someone labelling my deeply and sincerely held beliefs as “nonsense.”
One of my favorite retired Bishops in Newfoundland and Labrador (Not Bsp. Don Harvey) has a one word sentence that best describes the Article about Garth Bulmer. “RUBBISH”!!!
In my humble opinion, Bulmer lived the life of a liar, not uncommon for the gays in the ACC is it. He says he felt like a hypocrite ..rubbish!! He said nothing because he wanted his paycheque.
He said nothing because it wouldn’t be fair to his wife and family! Well, excuse me…… He said nothing because it wouldn’t be fair to his selfish self and for no other reason. Rubbish!!!
Nothing else to say about this, I feel an upset stomach coming on!
In response to Chris Trendell’s letter, I too am a priest/Bishop’s child and also a grandchild of two priests. I have fond memories of many churches I have known, grown up in, and cherished.
But I am prepared to leave behind me in the ACC all things dedicated to family members throughout the years in various churches because I believe I am upholding the Faith of my Fathers… That Holy Scripture contains all things necessary for eternal salvation through faith in Jesus Christ and that all that I have been taught may be concluded and proved by Scripture.
I am sad for Chris’s personal loss but the church belongs to Christ alone.
[I]t wasn’t until after retirement that Bulmer publicly announced he is gay in an interview with the Anglican Journal.
. . .
Bulmer was married for 25 years and has two sons but, over time, the marriage broke down, he says.
Doesn’t that mean that his sexual orientation changed during his adult life?
Scott:
“over time, the marriage broke down, he says. ”
Question: Why?
If that means his sexual orientation changed during his adult life, then that makes a mockery of the claim that it is a genetic thing and a mockery of all the reasons that are put forth to support the stand taken by the GLTBQ groups.
“His marriage broke down because he finally came out of the closet.
Rubbish
The rules of this blog are interesting….say somthing bad about Don Harvey or any of his followers and your worse then dirt…but keep your bad taste comments limited to “the enemy” as it are, then your fine. Need an example…look to just about anything typed by Gerry.
Brendon, can you direct me to a blog or forum that represents the mainstream ACoC that has fairer rules? I’d love to have a look.
I made a relatively benign comment (so I thought) on an ACoC-connected site a few days ago, but it never got past the moderator. Here, at least, you can express your viewpoint.
Brendon: That’s the way I see it…..Rubbish!
#8 There’s a difference between saying “What person x said is rubbish” and “Person x is rubbish.” The former is not against blog rules, the latter is. Gerry is blunt, but I haven’t noticed him break the blog rules yet.
#4 – I can’t resist guessing – Eddy Marsh? William Legg?
Kate: I will not answer your question on the blog, n’or would I want this Bishop named on the blog. I’m sure you understand.
Gee, I didn’t know I was blunt. I just call a spade a shovel when necessary.
My friend Michael D. at Canterbury is blunt also….is he not?
Correction on # 13 should be Lambeth (not the real one) not canterbury
Blunt isn’t against the blog rules. Even the admins, those paragons of tact and grace, have been known to be blunt at times
–Hey, I resemble that remark! –another admin.
It wasn’t a criticism, not from me anyway, Gerry…
Gerry,
If you care for variety you could include: balderdash, blather, bunkum, claptrap, drivel, garbage, idiocy, nonsense, piffle, poppycock, trash, twaddle. tommyrot, applesauce, baloney, bilge, bull, bunk, crap, hooey, malarkey, tripe, tripe and onions, gammon and spinach, quisquilian or – my favourite – codswallap.
One wouldn’t want to use them all at once, of course; moderation in all things.
OTOH, I believe it would be against forum rules to call anyone a phlyarologist or morologist. Although I have been tempted
David: You just gave me my chuckles for the day. Must copy and paste to a document all of your adjectives.
Kate: Never thought you were criticizing me Kate. Not at all.
And of course, from Wind in the Willows:
‘”Sixpence for the privilege of passing by the private road!” He was bowled over in an instant by the impatient and contemptuous Mole, who trotted along the side of the hedge chaffing the other rabbits as they peeped hurriedly from their holes to see what the row was about. “Onion-sauce! Onion-sauce!” he remarked jeeringly, and was gone before they could think of a thoroughly satisfactory reply.’
So, a classic term of opprobrium from a great English classic: “Onion-sauce! Onion-sauce!”
How could I have forgotten. Mrs. Toad may never forgive me.
Hey Gerry…I guess you’re getting excited about your new rector!
Mark:
You obviously know much more than I, perhaps you have a better source of information than the one you are accusing.
Mark, unless you are willing to be a bit less cryptic, perhaps you could take this conversation to private email?
Mark:
Kate has the right idea there, email me at the following which is my correct address:
gerryob [at] nl.rogers.com
–Edited by admin – I changed “@” to “[at]” to prevent automated bots from picking up Gerry’s email.
Tweet !! OK gang lets get back to the thread. Where do we file this article from the Dio. of NW – personal nostalgia, propoganda from Neale Adams, a revisionist look at how we see things …???
I too am nostalgic for the sixties & especially 1967 but not especially for the old style Anglican Culture Clubby way.
Our Diocese sadly misses the renewal movements like Cursillo and renewal Parishes like St Simon’s ( now renamed and celebrating multifaith winter soltices ! ) which were crushed by +Ingham.
Ah well, wandering conversations are ok around here.
Re: Diocese of New West….. tom: Where to file? I think Chris trendell’s letter is worthy of reasonable rebuttal. After which it can be filed where ever you want
Part of Chris’s Letter follows:
“As members of the national body, the parish of St. John’s has always been subject to, and participated in, the democratic principles that govern the Anglican Church. The move to allow same-sex blessings was not a top-down unilateral decision by Bishop Michael Ingham, but a majority vote by grassroots delegates from every parish.
{HELLO: EVERY Parish? I doubt it!}
In fact, the Bishop refused to give his consent to the rite of blessing until three synods, over a period of some years, signalled an ever-growing and more significant majority.
{After three synods, each increasing, he finally figured he would get away with it, that is why he waited three}
Even then, it was left up to each parish to vote on whether it wanted to grant or withhold such blessings.
{What happened to the majority vote from each Parish? He only did it this way because he knew he had to}!
There is plenty of room in the diocese, and a healthy respect, for any parish that decides against making the blessing service part of their community life.
{Sorry, it doesn’t appear to me that Ingham has respect for any opinions or any persons except himself and those who are likeminded}
Those people who disagree with the synod vote cannot just pick up their marbles and go home because they don’t like the decision of the majority.
{Yes they can AND they have!}
If people’s discomfort with the presence of the blessing service in any diocesan parish is so profound, then they may feel compelled to leave the Anglican diocese
{Again, they have, it is called ANiC and Province of The Southern Cone}
and seek a spiritual home that better suits their needs.
{AND it certainly seems apparent that is why they left}!
But I can’t see that they have any claim to property that was built through the financial, emotional, spiritual and physical investment of generations of members of the Anglican Church of Canada, in trust for the Anglicans of the future.
{Well, they feel they have that claim and time will tell}.
It’s sad that members of St. John’s have apparently amassed a ‘war chest’ of a million-plus dollars so they can wage a legal battle against the diocese in a bid to claim the church real estate. Should I be mounting a counter suit, claiming ownership of the “Trendell Lounge” based on my family’s investment in the parish?
{It will go on being called the “Trendell Lounge” out of respect for your Father and his memory – Never was owned by the Trendell family}
Perhaps, but one look at the outreach programs of the Anglican Church of Canada-aid in developing countries, emergency relief, refugee support, downtown shelters for the homeless, and a score of others-would remind most people of conscience
{Conscience!!… hello…. Is that a new word for the Bishop of New West and his dwindling Diocese?}
that our money is better spent elsewhere.
{Tell that to the Dioceses that have already started Civil Court legal Proceedings ~ The people of St. George’s Lowville, St. Hilda’s and The Good Shepherd in that diocese would agree with you, but Bishop Bird wouldn’t!}
Chris Trendell, St. Catherine’s, North Vancouver”
Chris: This isn’t all about Michael Ingham and the other unbelievers in the Dioc. of NW…..This is about the rights of Scripture Believing Christians who desire that all of the Scriptures be upheld and not be shredded.
Blessings,
Gerry O’Brien
Even then, it was left up to each parish to vote on whether it wanted to grant or withhold such blessings.
This is where the rubber hits the road. The church cannot bless what God doesn’t bless.
Also, about the “war chest” – my understanding was:
a) It is not money sitting in a bank that ANiC could do other things with – it is money that has been pledged to cover legal expenses only.
b) It is not just for St. John’s, but for any ANiC parish that has need of it.
I’m sure someone will correct me if I am wrong.
Right on Gerry & Kate – a parish priest refusing to go along with SSB is limiting their career or posting . Should a gay couple show up some day & demand their “rights” then a threat of a human rights comission awaits the priest. A big part of the SSB which was not allowed to be discussed is the healing ministry to those sexually broken. St. John’s Shaughnessy supports the ministry of www(dot)livingwaterscanada(dot)org whom address a number of vital areas and the results have been wonderful. It seems the insitutional church can only offer “I’m ok & your ok” and so let’s muddle along.
File: Sign of the Times
Kate,
a) and b), yes that is my understanding too. Also, the ‘war chest’ is for defense against civil suits, not to instigate them.
This gets repeated a lot, but it needs to be understood: the churches in court are only there because the dioceses they once belonged to have taken them to court, not because they wish to be there.
Tom:
Re your comment about “St. John’s Shaughnessy supports the ministry of www(dot)livingwaterscanada(dot)org whom address a number of vital areas and the results have been wonderful”.
I think that the ACC majority of Parishes, Priests, etc. that are in favor of SSB really don’t have a clue about ministry to the broken.
I would say with great confidence that most if not all of the Churches that have gone to ANiC are believing parishes concerning Ministries of Healing and Deliverance but as you said that was one of the parts that was not allowed at GS. The revisionists do not understand about such things, they do not understand about the Supremacy of Scriptures, and not only do they not understand, they do not WANT to understand.
I had a Priest tell me that such prayer (deliverance) would just not work for him. By saying that, he said that prayer does not work, he said that healings don’t happen, he basically said by omission that it is all a bunch of “codswallop” or “Onion-Sauce”.
Until one of them has an “experience” they just will not understand and they will not accept. Should be one of the requirements to enter the priesthood, that way we would have quality instead of overwhelming quantity.
It appears to me that the posting of several recent comments referring to Garth Bulmer verge on being hate-filled and hateful, lacking any sense of Christian love and charity. As I read the comments there seems to be a clear repudiation of several of the promises of our baptism including, the promise that with God’s help we will “strive for justice and peace among all people, and respect the dignity of every human being.” (BAS p. 159, 332) Presumably many of us reaffirmed this promise at our Easter Vigil service just ten days ago.
I would refer you to comment 8, Richard. It is fair game to say that Rev. Garth’s opinions are rubbish (that is, if we can back it up). It is not fair game to say that he personally, is rubbish. I don’t think we have crossed the line here, and I wouldn’t hesitate to call people on it if they did (and in fact, I have done so on other occasions). Please point out specifically where you think we have crossed the line. Also, the things he’s said about Essentials over the years have not exactly been filled with love and Christian charity either (not that that excuses any crossing of that line on our part).
Richard:
Hateful…hate filled…..not at all.
I don’t hate…….I just don’t have time for revisionists changing “The Word” to suit their own twisted liberal thinking.
The Holy Bible has a tendency to back my words up. The Holy Bible does not back up the openly professed actions of those who are pushing the envelope on not only SSB but on anything else that goes against Scripture.
Why don’t you take the time to google Dean Jensen of Sydney Australia for a recent talk he gave to The Church in Sydney. It is only 20 pages long (pdf) but it will tell you everything that I really do not have the time to put in words.
Again…..Rubbish.
Richard:
Here, I’ll save you the time of having to look it up:
http://acl.asn.au/pdf/Lambeth/Limits_of_Fellowship_Phillip_Jensen.pdf
If you take the time to read this, I would hope that Dean Jensen makes it much more clear to you than I.
Kate: re: #33 is it fair game to call someone a liar and selfish as in #4?
Rev. Garth has never been shy in front of the camera or pen – he is in the news a lot. If you are going to put your opinions out there for the world to see, you can’t expect people to not comment on or call you on them.
Re: Comments, agreed, but my question was is it fair game to use words like liar and selfish to describe someone? I believe that is crossing a line in so far as love and Christian charity go, I am asking what you believe?
They are harsher words than I would have used.
Neilda, I won’t offer an opinion on how they were used in this thread, but the Bible uses the words liar and selfish to describe people. I don’t think our Christian forefathers shied away from using these words either (Luther used much stronger language than I have ever seen on this blog).
Of course, in our postmodern society that places more value on tolerance than any other virtue (except when it comes to things Christian) and sees all truth as relative, these words are not viewed as politically correct.
Warren:
Thank you for your words in post #40. Thank you for reminding us that our forefathers had the courage to speak out words that told it how it was.
I am not big on “politically correct” these days. Seems to me that this is a term that has helped to propel us and the Church and other areas of our life into the tumult of wondering, gee, what can I say; how can I say this or that; I wonder if this is alright; what will people think; oh my, perhaps I should not say anything.
Neilda, I am sorry if my words have offended you. On the other hand, they did get your attention much better than if I had used weak kneed adjectives, adverbs, nouns and verbs that say absolutely nothing but do make everyone feel warm and fuzzy.
Sorry, I am not into warm and fuzzy. Why is this I wonder.
Perhaps because I spent a good portion of my life looking at victims of murder, suicides, drug abuse, violent Motor vehicle accident scenes with multiple deaths, aircraft crash sites, you name it, I saw it. I learned ‘blunt’ because it was one of the ways that I had to deal with situations. I don’t have time in my life for namby pamby niceties when those same namby pamby niceties have been used for the past 6 years since Micheal Ingham forced the issue of SSB and have had no impact whatsoever on him or on the others who are pushing the reformation of the ACoC into a faith without strength and without the Holy Bible being held up as the backbone of our Christian Being.
A few years ago, V. Gene Robinson was installed as Bishop of New Hampshire. Primate A. Hutchinson of Canada was one of those who helped to install him. Hutchinson was as guilty of pushing the envelope as is Robinson or Ingham. Those who approve and do so knowing that nothing will be said are as responsible as the ones who are the key figures.
Now, we have Primate Fred Hiltz who is even more forceful in pushing the envelope than was Andrew Hutchinson. +++Rowan is doing absolutely nothing in the way of showing direction and is just about in the same sinking boat except his boat is Canterbury.
Oh my, I am going on again…..end of my rant. Blunt as usual. I will understand Kate, Scott or Peter if this is edited to just a couple of lines.
It is still rubbish!!!
I’m not planning on editing. Then again, I’ve been married to a Newfoundlander (oops, sorry Bill, Labradorian) for almost 21 years, so I’m used to, um, the cultural lack of patience for political correctness….
On a related note, one of my husband’s work colleagues, when told that Bill is from Labrador, said “Oh, that explains it”. When Bill asked explains what, his colleague said that all the folks from Labrador he had met had a weird sense of humour. When he told me this story, Bill said that “Newfoundlanders are the outsiders of Canada, and Labradorians are the outsiders of Newfoundland, maybe that has something to do with it.” What do you think, Gerry and Mark? (I noticed that you post from a Newfoundland IP, which is why I am making an assumption that you are from Newfoundland, Mark…,)
Dearest Kate:
I cannot even claim my verbal disability as being because I am a Newfoundlander…..I am from Ontario and sometimes I don’t know if that is a good thing or a bad thing…..
I have lived here on this Island for the past 31 years this trip and prior to that for 4 years in the ’60′s but I don’t excuse that for my lack of patience (which I don’t think has any thing to do with culture). Most people in this neck of the woods are likely much more patient than myself.
I am just impatient with the ACoC because of it’s widening gap from Scripture and from the truthful teachings of our Lord. I am impatient with the revisionists becasue they seem to think they know more than Jesus did or more than the Prophets from the OT did. I do not pretend to be a Prophet and I do not pretend to be smarter than anyone else, however, when water is clear we can see through it…..when it is muddied we cannot see through it. The ACoC has been trying to and succeeding in muddying the waters of the Scriptures and I am tired of it. I just want to get in the lifeboat and move on to an Anglican Communion that talks the talk and walks the walk.
I said patience with political correctness, not patience in general. Most Newfoundlanders (and folk from Ireland, too, come to that) who I’ve met don’t have much of a problem calling a spade a spade.
After 31 years, you’re not still from away, surely?
Kate:
One thing about being a CFA (That means “Come from Away”) in this Province is this.
If you are not born here or if you are not of Newfoundland ancestry, then you just will never quite make it to being a Newfoundlander. That is alright because at least I can say that I am here by choice now, not because of my birthright.
Sorry for my misunderstanding of the “patience” thingie…. I just didn’t interpret your clear writing very well. will try to do better next time.
Perhaps my Irish/Scotch/Dutch/Ukrainian ancestry has helped me to be able to call a spade more than just a shovel at times.
…and perhaps I’m giving too much credence to stereotypes. I wonder if this thread holds the record for off-topicness…
It has been interesting though Kate – back to the thread & please visit http://www.stjohnsvancouver.org & click “on line sermons” for both the regular sermons & learners exchange. See what you think.
Dr Packer has a few recent talks on the Prayer Book that are well worth a listen.