Bishop Ingham Q&A
Jun 29th, 2007 by Peter
I thought the following article from the Globe and Mail, which includes a subsequent Bp Ingham Q&A, is most interesting:
First, the story:
Homophobia accepted in church, bishop says
MICHAEL VALPY
June 26, 2007
Canada’s only Anglican bishop to authorize the blessing of homosexual unions said yesterday the refusal by his fellow bishops to approve the rite for the national church is the product of institutional inertia rooted in homophobia.
Bishop Michael Ingham of the Vancouver-area diocese of New Westminster said homophobia, hiding behind interpretations of scripture, remains an acceptable prejudice in Canadian Anglicanism.
“There are members of our church who staunchly defend that. In my view, [it] is a total misreading of scripture and a misuse of the Bible to oppress people. But they clearly want to continue to do that.”
A motion before the church’s triennial general synod - or governing body - meeting in Winnipeg, to allow individual dioceses to permit blessings of same-sex unions was approved on Sunday by clergy and laity, but vetoed by a slim majority of bishops, who voted 21-19 against it. Earlier, however, the bishops had voted by the same margin in favour of a resolution stating that the blessings were not in conflict with the church’s “core doctrine.”
“To say that the blessing of same-sex unions is not in conflict with doctrine is a hugely significant thing,” Bishop Ingham said. “But to say at the same time there’s no doctrinal conflict but we’re not going to [do] anything about it is inertia - it’s institutional inertia rooted in homophobia.”
The two bishops who voted for the no-conflict resolution but against the blessings were David Torraville of the diocese of Central Newfoundland and James Cowan of the Vancouver Island diocese.
Bishop Cowan said after the vote that, while he favoured same-sex unions, he was still “asking for the theological rationale.” Bishop Torraville is known to have faced strong opposition from among his clergy to the blessings.
Then, the Q&A. I’ll refrain from addressing the points myself, though would point out they have been addressed and readdressed multiple times. Positions stay the same however and I would contend that the deeper issue is a fundamental difference in the interpretation and understanding of the Christian faith and the role of scripture within that faith.
J. Loo: Hi, Bishop Ingham. Thank you for taking the time to answer questions on G&M.
Last weekend, the General Synod passed a resolution that perhaps received less media attention than the defeated motion to authorize individual dioceses to bless same-sex unions.
The General Synod resolved that the blessing of same-sex unions is not in conflict with the core doctrine (in the sense of being credal) of the Anglican Church of Canada.
In your opinion, what are the theological as well as practical implications (if any) of this core doctrine resolution, particularly with regards to future decisions by the Anglican Church of Canada on the issue of same-sex unions?
Bishop Michael Ingham: I agree that the Church’s declaration on the doctrine question (that same-sex blessings are “not in conflict with the core doctrine of the Anglican Church”) is by far the most significant one to come out of the Winnipeg meeting.
Theologically, our Church is saying that the core beliefs of Christianity the existence of God, the divinity of Jesus Christ, the salvation of the world, etc. are not affected by the blessing (or non-blessing) of same-sex relationships.
In other words, human sexuality is not on the same level of importance as these primary foundational beliefs.
That means Christians are free to disagree on secondary questions, and the unity of the Church ought not to be threatened by them.
This position is in stark contrast to those who have argued that homosexuality is a “salvation issue” meaning, in effect, that homosexuals are going to hell.
General Synod disagreed with that claim, and placed Christian ethics at the level of a second-order question, i.e. within the realm of evolution and change.
Practically, it means that those who do bless same-sex unions are not acting contrary to the doctrine of the Church.
This has many implications. Clergy who go ahead, for example, cannot be accused of heresy. Nor could any disciplinary action against them be sustained. Nor is any relationship so blessed beyond the teaching and embrace of the Christian faith.
Kevin Farris, Victoria, B.C.: Bishop Ingham, first I would like to thank you for your leadership on this issue. It seems to me that the two decisions at General Synod first, that same-sex blessings are not inconsistent with doctrine but, second, we still won’t approve them are logically consistent.
There are plenty of things the church could do that would be in line with doctrine. The church is not bound to do all of them.
In April, though, the House of Bishops met and was joined by the Archbishop of Canterbury. Out of that meeting came a statement to the church, saying: “We are committed, as bishops in Canada, to develop the most generous pastoral response possible within the current teaching of the church.”
Having voted at General Synod to say that same-sex blessings were not at odds with the teaching of the church, would not the most generous pastoral response have been to approve them? Or had too many of the bishops made up their minds before Synod? To what extent do you think the Archbishop of Canterbury influenced this outcome?
Bishop Ingham: I agree that the most generous response would have been to approve blessings, but I am also aware that generosity means giving other people time to catch up on where the Church is going.
In my own diocese, we have tried to be as generous to theological conservatives as to gay and lesbian Christians.
Change does take time.
Most of the bishops had made up their minds before General Synod. We have been living with these questions for many years, and it would be hard to find any bishop (or priest and deacon) who has not come to some sort of conclusion already.
This does not mean they can’t change their minds. One of the interesting things about Winnipeg is the way some bishops voted differently on the various motions after listening to the debates.
The Archbishop of Canterbury may have influenced the debate, but perhaps not in the way you might think.
He issued invitations to all Canadian bishops to the Lambeth Conference before Winnipeg. (The Lambeth Conference is widely viewed as an indication of who does and who does not belong to the Anglican Communion.)
With those invitations already in their pockets, some bishops may have been more open to moving ahead.
JC Canada: Why does the Anglican Church insist on portraying the same-sex debate with such polarity?
Why is there not room in its discussion for tolerance, understanding and accommodation towards same-sex couples without going to the step of venerating their lifestyle through the institution of marriage? Can we not find a way to honour homosexual people who commit their lives to one another without impeding on the sanctity of man-woman marriage?
Bishop Ingham: The debate in the Anglican Church to date has not been about same-sex marriage.
Our discussions in Winnipeg were about non-nuptial unions, though we did (easily) pass a motion to consider the marriage question in light of revised Canadian law. That will take several years to work through, however.
At this point, the Church’s definition of marriage as a union of one man and one woman remains unchanged.
G. Canadian: One side of the church is saying that same-sex relationships are unbiblical and sinful and therefore cannot be blessed.
The other side is preaching that not only is the relationship not sinful but it is one which God blesses.
How can local option be an answer? How can these contradictory messages be held within the same church?
Isn’t it better to agree to disagree and to divvy up the church, allowing congregations to go their separate ways and dividing up the cathedrals to ensure both camps get their fair share of cathedral churches?
Bishop Ingham: Actually, differing positions have long if not always been held within the Church.
Much of the New Testament, for example, reveals healthy and vigorous disagreements on things like circumcision, food offered to idols, and the place of civil authorites in the governance of the faithful.
In recent years, just in the Anglican Church alone (not to mention other churches) Christians have tolerated different practices on divorce and re-marriage, the ordination of women, the admission of children to communion, and the legitimacy of armed conflict.
Christianity is a living faith, and thus subject to evolution and development. Historically, this does not start everywhere at once. Nor is change always from God.
Anglicans have a healthy notion of “provisionality” that requires us to test things out and see if they are of the Spirit or not. You can’t do that as an abstract exercise, but only through lived experience. In other words, sometimes we have to begin it and see.
Seydlitz 77, Edmonton: There are no less than seven places in the Bible (both Old and New Testament) where homosexual behaviour is condemned. They are Leviticus 18:22; Deuteronomy 23:17; Romans 1:22-27; 1 Corinthians 6:9; 1 Timothy 1:10; and Jude 1:7. How can you justify behaviour that your scriptures strongly condemn?
Bishop Ingham: You say “no less than seven verses” in the Bible condemn homosexual behaviour, which of course means that only seven verses (out of thousands in Scripture) do so.
Or do they?
We need to ask several questions here. What exactly is being condemned in these verses? In what context do these condemnations appear? And what authority should these texts have?
Whole libraries have been written on these questions, and space here is limited.
Briefly, the verses in the Hebrew Bible occur in the context of the Holiness Code a series of regulations and prohibitions covering wide areas of ancient Jewish ritual. These include things like ritual bathing for women, the preparation of food, the observance of festivals and sacrifices etc.
Most of these rules and rituals are no longer observed by Christians. The onus of proof is on those who wish to retain a few selective prohibitions, not on those who no longer regard them as normative.
Secondly, the biblical assumption is that all people are heterosexual. Thus homosexual behaviour is seen as both a personal choice and an act against nature.
This is clearly what St. Paul means when he speaks of people “exchanging natural intercourse for unnatural” in Romans 1. To exchange something is an act of will.
These and other similar passages seem to refer to homosexual acts voluntarily undertaken by heterosexual people, and this is what is condemned.
There is no biblical condemnation of natural homosexuality, nor is any consideration given in Scripture to the question of permanent lifelong committed relationships between persons of the same sex.
Thirdly, what is clearly condemned in the Bible is every form of sexual exploitation and coercion rape, sexual manipulation, prostitution, promiscuity, child abuse, and all manner of sexual deceit and domination. These are condemned in both their homosexual and heterosexual expressions.
And lastly, by far the greater witness of Scripture is toward love, justice and compassion especially for the outcast and despised.
These texts outnumber the seven passages you mention by so great a margin that it is puzzling to see such focus on the few at the expense of the many.
Paul Siemens, Squamish, B.C.: Bishop Michael, you mentioned that people are misinterpreting scripture when they are against same-sex marriage. Please, through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, interpret the following two passages: Mark 10:6-8 and Romans 1:26-28. Thank you for your answers.
Bishop Ingham: The Markan passage is about the permanence of marriage between a man and a woman.
If one were to interpret it strictly, it seems to state that all men and all women should get married, which Jesus himself did not do.
So, it must refer to those who do join together in marriage.
It says nothing at all about homosexual commitments indeed Jesus himself is entirely silent on the matter in stark contrast to many of his followers.
Gail Thomas: As an Anglican who was brought up with the Church’s teachings, I don’t see why the Church has to change to suit the sins of people. Yes we should be kind and love one another, but condoning any sinful lifestyle should not be the focus of religion.
The Church seems to be changing direction to suit the people rather than choosing the biblical teachings. There are so many false gods today that people are confused and need guidance not sympathy.
The book of life called the Bible and the Ten Commandments are treated like instruction booklets that come with a product. They are either ignored or worse filed away or disposed of because our free will tells us we know better than the Creator.
Bishop Ingham: I don’t see homosexuality per se as sinful, nor as a lifestyle.
Both these notions assume we have a choice about our sexual orientation. There is no sin without voluntary personal decision.
Certainly there are sexual sins, and both gay and straight people are capable of committing them.
It seems to me to be to be hypocritical, however, to deny homosexual people the comfort and intimacy of permanent relationships and then at the same time to condemn them for pursuing impermanent and casual ones.
The Church should be supporting committed families of both homosexual and heterosexual types, so that all people can experience the love that God intends for each one of us.
This debate is really about love, and the desire of many for the chance to lead holy lives of love before God.
Denying that opportunity is the real sin.

There are wonderful people on both sides of the issue, but to call those who disagree homophobic is hurtful and arrogant. It is just an argument that goes around and around. The term orientation has no scientific meaning; it is just another directional metaphor drawn from magnetism and navigation which superseded metaphors used prior to the 1970s. Rictor Norton has some really interesting essays on his website which really helped me understand the term “orientation”.
Why am I not surprised to see Ingham take a swipe at Christ Himself? His arrogance knows no bounds.
“The time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.”
(2 Timothy 4:3-4)
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and wickedness of men who by their wickedness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, His eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse; 21 for although they knew God they did not honour him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking and their senseless minds were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man or birds or animals or reptiles.
24 Therefore God gave them up in their lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonouring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonourable passions. Their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural, 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving the due penalty for their error. (2 Romans 1:18-27. New Oxford annotated bible. RSV.)
Why is it so hard to understand this? There is no ambiguity there. As far as context, go ahead and read the rest of it. The whole Bible for that matter! It is perfectly clear what is being said there. Even to a pitiful, foolish sinner like me.
Bp Ingham; “If one were to interpret it strictly, it seems to state that all men and all women should get married, which Jesus himself did not do.”
LOL! How does one interpret this loosely!? Not only that, but what “Markan” passage is he reading? He seems to have substituted a different passage that suits his answer better. It’s a common legal tactic; if you don’t like the answer, change the question. It seems Ingham is a marginally better lawyer than theologian… Also, by deliberately and knowingly misinterpreting scripture, he allows himself a cheap shot at the Saviour Christ in order to sustain his heresy. Astonishing hubris!
Forgive my zeal. This is the version derived from prayer. The original will cost me.
“Whatever is hidden is meant to be disclosed, and whatever is concealed or secret is meant to be brought out into the open.” (Matthew 4:22)
I have great compassion for people who experience same-sex desires. My family has a history of a predispostion towards alcoholism and depression, but for the grace of God these desires would have overtaken us, but His Grace is sufficient. But to say that God himself has deliberately given these desires to his people is beyond my understanding. I would not be able to worship such a God which gives desires contrary to the design of my own body, causing much physical, emotional and spiritual pain. Such a God is absurd. Now I must say the Penitential Rite because I am getting angry!!
To Dave M. and Pauline: DITTO, DITTO AND DITTO.
I am still at a loss to understand where Ingham comes up with such arrogance thoughts and interpretations. Scripture is not that difficult to understand when one has the Holy Spirit to lead in the interpreting…..however, when one is led by the evil one, Scripture becomes twisted to meet the mind of the evil ones subject. Obviously Ingham is well known and a great follower of the enemy. I would pray for those that are of similar mind to Ingham in wanting to tear down a Church that once believed in the Supremacy of Scripture.
If Primate Hiltz follows the path that he appears to be on, he will be no better than the TEC presiding bishop or Gene Robinson…..I would say this to ArchBishop Hiltz….turn from the path you are on or you will not be spending eternity where you think you will……
Nothing about Bp. Ingham’s response should elicit surprise. Remember, this is the man who attempted to appear the cautious, faithful Bishop in first, hesitating to pass the motion to allow blessings to proceed in his diocese, and then , bowing to the will of the people in allowing them (the absurdity of course, is that Christianity is not a democracy but a theocracy - ie. a benevolent dictatorship). The fact is that the original motion which precipitated this disaster should never have been allowed on the Synod floor in NW. The bishop vows to adhere to the doctrine, discipline and practice of the Anglican Church of Canada when he/she is consecrated. Nothing in the original motion fell within those parameters and so, the motion should have been out of order.
Our star-crossed and inept Primate, his Grace, Archbishop Fred Hiltz, late incumbent of the Diocese of NS and PEI, now swims in shark infested waters.
Having shot himself in the foot with his New Years sermon delivered sanctimoniously from the pulpit in Ottawa, he continues in the same vein with another bunch of pastoral nonsense from the Anglican throne. Headlines in the Anglican Journal, which are usually reserved to beg for even more money for the Anglican hierarchy to waste indiscriminately, trump: “Archbishop Hiltz clarifies Canadian situation for fellow primates.” Ho-hum!
Saying that he hoped to, “dispel rumour or misunderstanding,” Hiltz, has written to his fellow leaders of the worldwide Anglican Communion explaining the developments around the blessing of same-sex unions, which has embroiled Canadian Anglicans in conflict. Sadly, rumours and misunderstanding are long gone and theres nothing left to explain; on top of this, every Anglican that counts [with the exception of the usual fence-sitters] has already decided upon which side of the gaping schism they will stand. All that remains is to secure their personal niche or power-base in the new left or right wing bureaucracy, and to make sure that stipend, benefits and pension plan flow on without interruption!
In a pathetic attempt to shift the blame, Hiltz who is silent on the issue of his own sexual orientation, but an open supporter of Same Sex Blessings says, Canadian Anglicans, “Do live in a country where the federal government in 2005 approved legislation that allows the marriage of same-gender couples.” So what? Any move to reduce the persecution of minorities is good; however, this has sweet Fanny Adams to do with the Anglican Church of Canada.
The primate whimpers that it was “regrettable” that some Canadian Anglicans have chosen to leave the church despite the fact that the house of bishops had made “adequate and appropriate provision for the pastoral care and episcopal support of all members of our church, including those who find themselves in conscientious disagreement with the view of their bishop and synod” What a joke! Did you ever try to have an intellectual conversation with an Anglican bishop? What follows is a one-way script, entitled: “My way, or the highway!” And, never mind that the Anglican ‘faithful’ have been bailing out for close to fifty years now, and of the few who are left they are now choosing which Anglican church they will support in Canada.
Hiltz’s main rival for the leadership of the left wing church is New Westminster, BC Archbishop Michael Ingham. Ingham, backed up by his longtime associate and faithful sidekick, the insidious Dean Peter Elliot [who publicly burned his bridges by coming out in England at the General Synod and thus can now only obtain the coveted crosier in a left wing church] have been working a group called The Chicago Consultation. This is an international group of about 50 Anglican leaders who met in Chicago in December 2007 to “build international coalitions and develop a strategy for the full inclusion of gay and lesbian Christians in the life of the church.” This group have recently, called upon the Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams, to invite Bishop Gene Robinson of New Hampshire [who lives with a male partner] as a full participant to the 2008 Lambeth Conference. Participants, including the devious Ingham, also voiced opposition to the concept of an Anglican covenant that would create a centralized governing body with authority over member churches for the first time in the Anglican Communion’s history.
Right Rev Gene Robinson, who is divorced [from a heterosexual partner, who like so many Anglican priests he presumably married as a smoke screen ‘back then,’] now lives openly in partnership with a gay man. Robinson said, somewhat hypocritically, that he found it mystifying that the mother Church of the Anglican Communion was unable to be honest about the number of gay clergy in its ranks.
He added that many of the Anglican Church’s clergy lived openly in their rectories with gay partners, with the full knowledge of their bishops. But he criticized the stance of bishops who threaten the clergy with enmity should their relationships become public. Robinson indicated that if the gay and lesbian priests were to leave, then the church would be virtually shut down.
Fascinating stuff, and of course while all this is taking place the rabid right wing is not sitting on its hands either here in Canada, or worldwide.
Well, Taffy Williams of “The Reversible Chasuble and the Closet at Lambeth Palace” fame is not going to be happy with any of this: he’s got enough problems with his own rather tragic flip-flop image, caused by the usual hypocrisy and lack of personal honesty one might reasonably surmise.
The underlying issues and the absolute hypocrisy that surrounds this schism are quite tragic. Firstly, the Anglican Church has always had a predominance of gay [and lately] lesbian priests, albeit that the great majority of them are way in the back of the dark recesses of the proverbial closet; to the point where many continue vainly to attempt to cloak their sexual orientation by adopting the appearances of a heterosexual lifestyle.
The foregoing is bad enough: can we not just be honest about who we are, but what is even worse, and in my opinion unforgivable, is the utter waste of millions and millions of charitable dollars on the gay blessings issue and the resulting schism. Of course, this schism is only marginally about gay and lesbian people: the main issue is power, control, property, ecclesiastical position and the personal lifestyle of the princes and princesses of the church like Hiltz and Ingham. These vain, egotistical and hypocritical men, and now women, continue to gouge huge amounts of charitable dollars from the Anglican faithful, and then proceed to splurge it on themselves and to waste it on an institution [the ACC] that has moved so far in practice from the program of Jesus of Nazareth that it is no longer a Christian church.
I wonder what Jesus thinks? Just for the record, Jesus said many things; however, the foundation of his program was actually very simple: “Love God with all of your heart and love your neighbour as yourself.”
“Hiltz who is silent on the issue of his own sexual orientation”
Actually he’s been married to the same woman for 30 years. Lots of heterosexuals support same sex marriage.
The question is whether the Church is obligated to follow the social trends of secular society. That is where Hiltz and I disagree. And it is a fundamental disagreement.
Ellie M.
I know about married bishops and clergymen: I do not want to burst your bubble, or to offer harm to any individual, but 30 plus years ago it was normal to cloak one’s true sexual orientation within a heterosexual marriage and to have children too.
Take the case of the Right Rev Gene Robinson for example!
I agree that lots of heterosexuals support same sex marriage; however, the continued hypocrisy [Robinson speaks to this issue too] is a pathetic sham.
Did you read my post I wonder?
Malachy (#9), unless Ellie uses an RSS reader (and I doubt that most readers of this blog do), I suspect your response is about three months and three weeks too late. It’s just the way blogs work.