Good afternoon. Something to consider on A022 – re this bit:
The Solemn Declaration of the Declaration of Principles belongs in a particular historic context and therefore cannot be altered or amended.
Some folk are wondering if this relegates the Solemn Declaration to historic context like the Magna Carta -i.e we cannot amend it but it has no practical use in our day and age. Difference of opinion on this one.
Also, there may be some new amendments coming to the floor…stay tuned…
According to the orders it will now be committee of the whole, this is basically a massive talking shop, no resolutions come to the floor. Expect lots of discussion on SSB.
Abp Andrew introducing afternoon session. Ruling on procedural motion C003…..it is in order.
C003 comes up (see end of morning post for details on C003), will see if I can paraphrase intelligibly. We are voting now on the request that resolution C003 be debated immediately after Committee of the Whole. Not on C003, but on the request that it be debated immediately.
Voting…..this one will need counting….trying again……think it needs 2/3…..motion fails in clergy and laity….don’t have figures. Makes Bishop count moot but we’re doing it anyway. Motion fails in the house of bishops.
Committee of the Whole Blessing Same Sex Unions
Abp Andrew introducing…listen to what Spirit is saying to the Church, be respectful, be cognisent. Now prayers.
Presentation being made. Speaker ? (CoGS member I think) Leading a discussion of SSU (Same Sex Unions). Leading you to understand how CoGS came to the resolutions they did (this should be good). Talking about adiaphora doctrine…can have disagreement without endagering unity. Respectful discussions were had. Honestly we did no know how to proceed…H.S opened our eyes. Last meeting significant majority arrived at these resolutions. Now will explain how resolutions were arrived at.
Speaker opinion these resultions are clear – no ambiguity. Council is presenting resolution with 60% approval rate. CoGS thought it wise to have larger than 60% majority. Recognise differences, therefreo clear majority needed. CoGS struggled if this was doctrine…..this is not new doctrine….trying to apply doctrine pastorally…..CoGS thinks it is time for ACC to address issue fairly at this Synod…we are not defining a new doctrine therefore not new canon, we need this done in one synod….as we did with ordination of women and other examples. We chose not to deal with this as marriage, but suggest we look at marriage over time and think more about this as a Church.
Please be honest and respectful. Speaker now talking personally…in favour of SSB. Chuirch needs to address this and not exclude homosexuals. Everyone loved by God and called to a life of love with Him. Homosexusals must abide by same code as hereosexuals. Quoting ABC ethics – the decision must reflect the character of God.
Another CoGS member addressing synod….missed some of her talk…explaining again how the CoGS did things ahead of these resolution. Fears were expressed during CoGS sessions….who will minister with these presons if we do not? Are we establishing a church of the elite? Who are we serving, only those on the inside? Too fixated on this one issue? Concerns re justice making. Faith and Worship committee had some things to say. Debated how these motions should be put forward…none of this was done lightly and it was all respectful. Most of us felt very very good. We pass this info to you so you understand how we came to these motions.
Committe of Whole….freeflowing discussion, not bound by rules. Still 3 mins per speaker max….here we go…..
Dio BC (George). Labels are not helpful…he was part of the ‘yes and not now’ – in favour of new amendment that would require this go through on two synods, not just this one (don’t have details on that as yet). Only cares about ACC , not about Anglican Communion.
Dio Algoma. Talking about 60%…..why is this 60% when we can change the creed with 50%?
Dio Toronto. I am hetero family man. If resolutions are defeated I will be disappointed. Talking about gay pain and exclusion. Need to consider this with respect to these people. Will be a ray of hope for these people. Will be recognised for human beings. If resolution is defeated they will be devestated. Let us do the right thing.
Dio Saskatchewan (John Rice?) Have been listening from all people, international partners, people with fears about what is going on at GS. Time for grey haired Englishment with nice accent to be in charge is gone.
Dio Fredricton (Jean). When APA removed homosexuality from list of disorders, it was not done by science, but done by political pressure. Dr Spitzer – same sex attraction can be changed (the APA guy in charge when homosexuality removed)
Speaker ? The issue is not homosexuality – issue is that we are Catholic christians and need to consider more widely. How does this relate throughout the world. CS Lewis chronological snobbery. We in N America have geographical snobbery.
Dio Edmonton Steve London. We should be talking more time over this. We need to wrestle with more significant issue. Nothing published by church to wrestle with this.
Dio ? (Steve) Troubled sometimes with these questions….need to take time over this.
Dio ? (Jean) Concern about resolution A186. Ambiguous. Talking about core doctrine in that resolution would propose amendment ‘it is not in conflict with doctrine’ as a wording.
Dio Arctic David Parsons Has had change of opinion, used to disregard the Bible. Not now. We have been handed down the Bible and that word speaks life beyond comprehension. Sin is Sin. Cannot bless Sin. Talking about Titanic, Captain wouldn’t listen, be careful about which spirit you are listening to. JC is my one and only saviour. Listen to Him.
Dio Fredricton David Edwards. Speaking against resolution. We are a divided house, we are not in position to make decision. WWAC is asking us to do something…wait.
Dio Ruperts Land. Story re blessings. Why something that was available for me (blessings) not available for others?
Bp Buckle. Speaking Zaccheaus Fellowship letter (these folk were denied voice at GS) – folks coming out from gay lifestyle. Who will minister to them, they will be told their desire to be faithful will be told was wrong. They stand as vioce of hope.
Speaker ? We beleive in God who will transform our lives. We accept folk. Will stand against motion.
Ronald Stephenson (chancellor) – speaking personally. Can remeber when same sex acts were criminal. Can remembers when straights though gay sexual perverts. Not a manner of choice.
Dio BC Bruce Byant-Scott. Readikng from scripture – All things are lawful but not all things are beneficial / build up. I beleive it is lawful and acceptable.
Dio Ontario (Dorothy) Heard brother speaking about brother/sister in Uganda. Difficult situation there – stigma. Bear this in mind.
Speaker ? From 3rd world country. People from my country are looking for hope, wating for you to decide in favour. Friend brutally killed because gay. Brothers/sisters waiting for a light to come from here.
Dio Niagra – Missed some of this while page loading up. When 2 people come before God. Not question what we shouls allow, but reconciling work of JC. Not intolerance.
Dio Toronto – Story from 1972 re lesbian. 30% of my community is gay. Come to be welcomed, come for community, come to meet Jesus, come to be shaped by H.S. By that they find Justice and compassion. We are oasis right now, but we should not be there. God is calling us to move. Like Peter – who am I to stand in the way of the spirit?
James Robinson CoGS Dio Calgary (lone Con on CoGS). We should not be Pharisees, but neither should we be Sadducees – who atempted to conform to the world and the ruling party. We are becoming indistinguishable from society.
Dio Ruperts Land (Barry). Talking about fears. Will pass this with only 60% for such a momentus decision? We said it was an issue of doctrine.If you can prove it is valid then WWAC will join.
Dio Toronto (Kim Baird?) Had touch with many communities in Nigeria, Kenya etc. They were very strong on consensus, and very patient. Dio NW seperated from diocese. 5 diocese and lots of churches in TEC seperated. Speaker sees division, a house that cannot stand. Supports WR.
Dio Quebec (Dennis). Talking about alienation and inclusion. We must begin to accept a profound policy of inclusion. Open doors and break down barriers. SSB only a small part of this issue. Open the doors and invite all to share with us.
Dio Athabasca (Terry) Bible knows nothing about committed SSU – need theology. Can’t decide this on a simple majority as we have agreed it is doctrine. Need practical help.
Dio Calgary (Sheila Vanderputter). Want to be honest, hear my heart. We value and cherish the word of God. Reached a point when I have to realise what I understand of scripture many here do not. I care, but what holds me is word of God. Society is not foundation. How can it be movement of the H.S. when it is contradicted by scripture? Here I stand, can do no other, will not vote in favour.
Speaker ? – missed most of this one, sorry. Looks like there is 20 speakers waiting in line.
Dio Arctic. I oppose SSU due to love of God and fellow people. Homosexual behaviour not in line with scripture. I desire for Gods people to be whole, help them come back in line with Gods will. Pastoral care for all Gods people.
Dio West Newfoundland (Derek) 17 yrs old. God loves everybody. Not offering ss couples blessings, are we saying different level of acceptance in Gods eyes.
Dio Brandon. Do not want to cause pain. Praying about inclusivity – wide and narrow path. Wide path saying great things. Other one very quiet alone, narrow. Ask God why not more on that path? All people on that path carrying crosses…transformative power.
Dio NW Steve Schuh. Encouraged by theological work. Giving his story. About repressed sexual identity, no understanding of myself as human being. Thanks to theological studies was able to deal with sexual orientation for very first time. Still small voice said to me I am a gay person.
Dio Calgary Gene Packwood. Qoute from Little mosque on the Praries “I’m a Christian but I do not let that affect me”. Encouraged that you are letting Christianity affect you. Graciously magnanimous…but also need to speak truth. You shall know the truth and the truth shall make you odd 
. Follow JC. Can love the man but challenge the sin.
Dio Toronto. We need to pass this now, have waited far too long. Listen to deepest scripture – Love and Justice. Struggle for acceptance.
Dio Fredricton. Think SSB is premature at this time.
Dio New West (Charles Nurse?) Talking about same sex committed relationships, 46 years. See in them same kind of relationship that married couples have. No reason we should not bless. Vote in favour of motion.
Dio New West (John Oakes). Has changed his mind on this issue…now on a more conservative side. Do not beleive that teachings of NT allow me to be anywhere else. Working within Dio NW. Concern for unity of the Church. Do not beleive we are ready to make this decision, we are a house divided. We need time. Think John is behind C003 – take more time and study. A187 so open ended no provision for me.
Dio Montreal. Have you ever felt excluded? As a priest and divorced woman felt excluded when trying to marry second husband. Also husband from another race so suffered stigma.
Dio New West. Youth delegate in favour. Very much reading from prepared statement. Blessing SSU acting in the love of God. God wants us to act above out of all from love.
Dio Kewaitin (Hugh Matherson) Speaking about grace of St Peter when sheet let down from heaven. I know some things were right e.g. women priests even though not in Bible. Know H.S. in faithful committed relationship of gay/lesbian.
Speaker ? Understands God loves sinner but hates sin. Hatred of evil is the fear of the Lord. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.
Dio Fredricton (Keith Joyce?) Acknowleges pain, has conservative view. Cross of Christ brings us together. Desire for unity and not be seperated over SSUs. Find a way to not do it by vote, cos that’s about power.
Dio Edmonton (Robin Thompson?). Don’t like the 60%. Too much uncertainty with 60%. Is on EcoJustice committee. We are all genuinely seeking Christ. Why are we in disagreement, is God not speaking or alowing us to believe different things? If so He must have good reason for this. Need time to study this.
Dio Niagra (? Newman?) Speak in support of strong and sturdy simple majority. Ordination of wonen was sorted by simple majority, as well as many other things. 11th hour changes in search for new number not fair. Do nothing done out of fear.
John Paul Westin (Essentials Federation). Speaking against. Think in communitarian ways
(larger circle). Challenge for gracious magnimanity.
Abp Andrew time is coming to an end. Taking last speaker.
Dio Kootney (Chris). Middle voter, liberal on issue, struggling with how fast we should go. Correct method is to do this via Canon – needs to be done properly by 2/3 over 2 synods. Local option does not prevent discussion.
Voted out of committe of the whole, so now back in formal session. Admin stuff for provincial caucases.
We will reconvene at 7pm.
Anon- You are correct. I’m just glad someone standing against SSU could come across (in my opinion) with a message of love. Particularly because those ‘against’ tend to be accused of not being loving enough, or loving ‘selectively’.
Good point, Deanne.
*In post #51 I was speaking with reference to post #45.
As someone who is the Rector of the church to which Pete belongs I want to express our thanks to him for this ministry he has been providing. We are so grateful to you Pete as a congreation for the way you are serving Jesus and his church. As one who is helping to organize the Essentials presence at GS I also want to thank you for this wonderful service.
Pete, thank you.
On another point,
It is a privlege as someone who is from the Dicoese of Calgary to have heard James Robinson and Sheila Vanderputten. I thought that the two of them spoke with such humility and compassion. I appreciated James’ point about how we as Anglicans are prone to be like the Sadducees, and subtracting away from Scripture. Shelia spoke so poignently about the pain she is experiencing as she stands on the word of God and knows how there is a divide that hurts so deeply.
Gene has just moved away from the microphone and also spoke with such clarity.
Way to go Calgary delegates!
Jonathan
I know, Deanne.
I didn’t realize there’d be so much time allotted for speakers.
I’m trying to find an agenda on this now, but does anyone know when the voting starts?
Orders of the day has resolutions re BSSU is set for 7 PM.
They were scheduled to debate 3 – 4:30. Feels like it’s been at least that long already, but I guess they have another 25 minutes.
After supper, Deanne.
This garbage about “feeling excluded,” etc. is irrelevant. This woman wanted to be a priest but she thought it was a dirty secret. She is certainly not a priest of God. This shouldn’t be based on FEELINGS.
…and thanks to you Jonathan for your labours in preaching the Word and orthodox teaching. The Calgary delegates were great.
Anon, comment 58. I agree completely. It all seems to be about feelings, doesn’t it? All about emotions, and deeply personal and individual emotions at that.
I’m greeting frustrated at the entertaining of these ‘voices,’ John K.
Anonymous
She is certainly not a priest of God. This shouldn’t be based on FEELINGS.
True! The Holy Spirit never works through our feelings. So many people are ignorant of the fact that our feelings are created by Satan and that God is all intellect (note sarcasm)
This man’s EXPERIENCE led him to believe that women can be priests.
This man’s EXPERIENCE has seen the Holy Ghost in gay relations.
Speaker comparing to Peter’s vision. New personal revelation overrides Scripture. More personal feelings.
I will not note your sarcasm. Feelings do not stand independent of the intellect.
John K,
Yes it does seem to be about feelings. That and those “for” the blessing of SSU seeming to think God’s love means acceptance of anything we do, sinful or not, as long as it comes out of personal love (homosexual or not). I know people are tired of hearing “love the sinner, hate the sin” but I really believe in that.
Right, Deanne: we think we can individually define love because we feel it.
Amen, Sister.
Anonymous
When you are a young girl growing up in a Church that does not ordain women, is it not reasonable to think that your calling is a “bad thing?”
Peter your fingers must be getting tired!
Yes, Brian, it is reasonable. And that thinking should have been confirmed, not denied. And that thinking should be confirmed in today’s Church (which should be the Church of all ages) as well.
Deanne
I am for SSUs and I do not think that way. God certainly loves us, but there are restrictions based on sin: non-consensual activity (rape, child molestation) and consensual (polygamy, incest)
Robin is right about the 60%.. Probably more than 60% worshipped the golden calf. I don’t think God is swayed by majority opinion.
And that thinking should have been confirmed, not denied. And that thinking should be confirmed in today’s Church (which should be the Church of all ages) as well.
The FRoman Catholics and the Orthodox may be a fine option for you
Robin is right about the 60%.. Probably more than 60% worshiped the golden calf. I don’t think God is swayed by majority opinion.
Isn’t the alternative 2/3? If my wife or my doctor were only 2/3 sure, I would feel the same as if they were 3/5 sure.
Brian,
but there are restrictions based on sin: non-consensual activity (rape, child molestation) and consensual (polygamy, incest)
What are your criteria for deciding what is allowable and what is not, what is sin and what is not?
The Catholic Church is a fine option for me, which the Anglican Branch has borne faithful witness to for many, many years until the liberal innovations. I see my Church as a continuation of the Church Universal since the beginning of the Church and that the Anglican Church has chosen to deviate only recently.
Yes Peter, you are correct.
Re: Dio Niagara- Wendy Newman was the last speaker’s name.
I find myself greatly saddened as I watch these proceedings. Although I am not now attending an Anglican church in my current community, I still hold Anglicanism very close to my heart. This is the church that evangelised the world. Now, to see speaker after speaker departing from the truth once so faithfully taught, I can only shake my head and wonder, “What are they thinking?”
My fingers are now taking a rest from their 2 digit typing
Thanks, Pete!! Your fingers need a well earned rest.
John K
What are your criteria for deciding what is allowable and what is not, what is sin and what is not?
Anything that is evil. And sin can also be done against community. So we look at sin as actions against God and against community (our fellow man)
I haven’t yet heard anyone say the issue is not about inclusiveness but about discipleship. The invitation of Jesus is to all kinds of sinners (including me!)–that should be a no-brainer–the question is what it means to live as a follower of Jesus once you have accepted his invitation to be a disciple. I get very distressed when the question is made one of inclusive (good) versus exclusive (bad), instead of what does Jesus ask of his disciples.
John
PS. My thanks to Peter O and his faithful two fingers also.
[...] Day Five – News 5.1 ESSENTIALS BLOGGER– General Synod afternoon session 23/6/07 [...]
There are so many wonderful faithful Anglicans in the Church of Canada and I know that God will use them as seed for a new expression of Anglicanism in North America. We are not hidden anymore and have been brought together for this moment in time. I for one am truly grateful for all the incredible people I have met during this crisis. The internet has also brought us together and this seed will not be lost.
I suppose we could theorize that God used as a seed the faithful Anglicans which emerged from the Anglican Church when the innovation of the ordination of women was introduced a number of years back, and who formed the Anglican Catholic Church of Canada. Perhaps even those who have stayed within the heretical Anglican Church of Canada to this day are part of that seed, and the faithful might continue to remain within the heretical Anglican Church of Canada to this day. Different Christians are perhaps called to different reactions/responses.
All this talk about love and feelings highlights the sad state of scriptural ignorance into which the ACC has fallen. Anglican clergy who are the products of liberal theological schools and laity who listen to their sermons Sunday after Sunday are ill-equipped to make the decisions being asked of them. The spirit of the age moves like the wind through their midst and they have no way to discern that they are being mislead.
There are in fact two Great Commandments (Matt.22:30-51). Love of God is first and foremost and the second “is like unto it” but it is second. Love of God must be the first thing throughout our lives, and the other gods the world throws up for us such as money, work, fame, sex, power, pleasure, good causes, must not be allowed to replace the Love of God. Hand in hand with the love of God is to be our love for our neighbour, but we must not lose sight of the ascendancy of the love of God. To love God is to surrender our desires for our own pleasures and submit them to him, whose love for us was so great that he sent his Son to die for us. Ephesians 4:1 – And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands.
The biblical commands concerning active homosexual relationships are all expressions of God’s abhorrence of such activity, and there are no scriptural passages that speak in favour of them. One cannot express true love of God while disobeying his commands. This is of course true of a whole long list of sinful activity and there is nothing to make same sex activity a greater or lesser sin than others. Those who oppose blessing same sex unions would take the same position if any other form of sinful activity was proposed to be blessed.
J.I. Packer puts it thus: “God who is love is first and foremost light, and sentimental ideas of his love as an indulgent, benevolent softness, divorced from moral standards and concerns, must therefore be ruled out from the start. God’s love is holy love. The God whom Jesus made known is not a God who is indifferent to moral distinctions, but a God who loves righteousness and hates iniquity, a God whose ideal for his children is that they should be ‘perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect – pure, upright, flawless, blameless, in other words holy, as God is holy.”
C.S. Lewis spoke of this and said: “Every human love, at its height, has a tendency to claim for itself a divine authority. Its voice tends to sound as if it were the will of God himself. It tells us not to count the cost, it demands of us a total commitment, it attempts to override all other claims and insinuates that any action that is sincerely done ‘for love’s sake’ is thereby lawful and even meritorious”.
I continue to pray for a miracle tonight, a mass conversion, a revelation that would transform our church. Failing that we must move on to support the work of Essentials so that there is a place for faithful clergy and their flock to be fed and nourished so that they may continue the true commission to which we have been called as Christians – the work of reconciling the world to God – while the remnant of the ACC will pursue its inversion of that truth.
Ben Buan offers brilliant remarks which ought to be heeded by all.
A Ninevah moment!
There’s another procedural conundrum coming up. If A185 (the 60% rule) is adopted, they will still have to suspend the relevant rules which state that resolutions are determined by 50%+1 majorities. And it takes a two-thirds vote to suspend the rules – the standard that was applied on the procedural effort to move up C003. See Rule 23 at http://www.anglican.ca/handbook/104_rules_of_order.pdf
Anyone know how they’re going to handle this?
Ben Baun,
Thank you for those comments.
Brian,
Anything that is evil. And sin can also be done against community. So we look at sin as actions against God and against community (our fellow man)
But what is your standard for deciding what is evil, what is sin? You have stated you are in favour of SSU’s, so I gather your standard is not Scripture.
Ben Buan
Sorry, I misspelled your name.
Well, it looks to me like Ben Buan has summed up this whole sorry mess….I wonder how much common sense the Bishops, Clergy and Laity who are so confused would be able to make of Bens’ comments? Not likely any more than they are making of anything else. It is so simple………If you are an electrician and you run into problems, you refer to the electricians manual…..If you are a policeman and you catch a criminal you don’t declare him to be the victim……If you are a Christian and you need instructions, where do you go….supposedly to your Minister or Rector or Bishop…BUT WAIT..that won’t work a great amount of the time…..WHY NOT CHECK out the Holy Bible? It is straightforward, intelligent, God Breathed instructions on living and on lifestyles. If we are in sin, we repent and don’t go back……..Yes, I think believing that the Holy Bible is God Breathed is the right track…..
I think it is quite telling that tonight is the Eve of the feast of St. John the Baptist.